Wlad/Chagaev in jeopardy! Chagaev tests positive for Hepatitis B.

[RightCross94]

this just shows you can anyones record look bad, (not that knn didnt make himself look like a ******)

the funny thing is, tunney and knn try so hard to put ali down and put a spin on his record or opponents to make him look bad

and you dont even need to put a spin on wlad or vitalis career to make them look bad, they just look bad as it is

[knn]

Basically you have nothing to say. Repeating the same thing over and over.

Yup, I will repeat facts over and over. It will stick more and more with people. You cannot really fight facts.

Roy Jones and James Toney didn't do too bad.

Jones and Toney are nobodies at heavyweight.

You care about the weight a fighter fought at as a teenager so the weight a 20 year old fights at as an amateur should matter as well.

I don't even care much about the minimum weight. I care more about the average/general weight.

Or because he started his career later. When did Lewis retire? At 37 years of age, the same age Holyfield fought Lewis.

• Lewis started with 24. Evan Fields with 22. Hardly a big difference.
• Lewis had 42 fights (200+ opponents) in 13 years (3.2 per year). Evan Fields had 36 fights (= less than Lennox) in 20 years (1.8 fights per year). Ali had 37 fights in 20 years (1.85 fights per year). Wlad had 55 fights in 12 years (4.6 fights per year). Wlad is 2.5 more active than Ali or Evan Fields. BUT GUESS THE ONE THING THAT WON'T HAPPEN when Wlad loses: Nobody will claim that "Wlad was shot because he fought so many fights". Yet this "shot argument" is right at hand when it comes to Tyson or Evan Fields.
• Being involved in wars (Evan Fields, Ali) is not a virtue, but the lack of dominance.

Most people in this case being doctors and officials who thought Holyfield was risking serious injury in the ring by continuing to fight.

I am not talking about single fights. I am talking about records. Holyfield is still cleared to fight (10 years after Lewis), so however his body was... it couldn't been that bad.

He was a fat slob, albeit a highly entertaining one who struggled with the likes of a 40 year old Matt Skelton who started boxing in his late 30's.

Williams is what he is. And Tyson couldn't overcome him.

Atleast I got you to admit that you were downgrading his opposition.

My whole sig is a downgrade of his opposition. It's obvious. There is nothing to "admit".

Excluding the Klitschko brothers and the circus act Valuev, the average top ranked heavyweight today weighs around 220-230, with a bit of extra weight on him, and stands around 6'1-6'3. Look at Povetkin, Chagaev, Ibragimov, Peter, Chambers, Arreola, Haye, Ruiz, Boytsov...

Most of these men were "sub-200 lbers" as amateurs in their 20's.

Yes, and if someone had a win against them when they were sub-200 then I would add that win to the cruiser record, not the heavyweight record.

Never seen Ali choke anyone but he does pull the head down. Thrilla in Manila didn't have much clinching.

Whaaaa?

The great Lennox Lewis himself was known for pulling an opponent's neck down and blasting them with the uppercut, which is an even more serious foul than Ali's yet he was never penalized for it.

I am very happy that we compare now the dirtiness of Ali to other boxers. This is a comparison very much needed. "How dirty was Dirty Clay?"

Not to mention Holyfield's headbutts, Holmes' lacing, Hopkins', well, pretty much everything...

So nice of you mentioning dirty behavior of other greats! Hey, you are doing my job! Keep going!

Ali made Terrell go into a shell, utterly dominating an opponent who many thought would be his best challenger.

Yes, Ali made all of that... and yet Ali's style sucks.

I guess it's not as good as Klitschko's showing against Ibragimov though.

1. Terrell was already 4 times beaten when he faced Ali
2. Terell's career record is 20-9 against heavyweight opponents (= heavyweight bum).
3. Terell had a heavyweight record of 17-4 when he faced Ali.
4. Don't even compare a record of 17-4 with the record of Ibragimov who was unbeaten 22-0 (with 16 KOs) when he met Wlad.
5. Terell in his heavyweight career had 6 KOs in 28 fights = An unbelievable powderpuncher
6. "who many thought would be his best challenger" just shows you again how crappy the division was.
7. It was Ibragimov who was running away (leaning extremely back) in the fight against Wlad. In the Ali-Terell fight Ali was running away ("floating"). Thus don't compare Ali and Wlad. Rather compare Iggy and Ali.

Cruiser wasn't 200 lbs until a few years ago. It's a bogus division anyway, both Schmeling and Louis fought 200+ lbers and for the most part beat them up very easily.

Bogus or not. Nowadays heavies cannot fight against 170+ guys to get a better record. To make nowadays heavies comparable with the 70ies (and to make nowadays cruisers comparable with the 70ies) you have to draw a line.

By the way, not the weight class itself is bogus. THE NAMING IS BOGUS. You now have effectively 2 weight classes called "heavyweight": The one of Marciano and the one of Klitschko. This way fans delude themselves into comparing Marciano with Klitschko although Marciano had nothing whatsoever to do with 200+ heavies. The CORRECT WAY WOULD HAVE BEEN to keep the old heavyweight class (175+) and then make a SUPERheavyweight class. That way it would have been much clearer that Marciano was a heavyweight, while nowadays heavies are superheavyweights. And noone would compare Marciano to Valuev.

Rock-solid chin of Wladimir Klitschko... That's pretty funny.

I wrote "rock-solid chin/defenses" of the Klitschkos. Moreover Wladimir Klitschko has been KOed only 1x because of chin issues. The other 2x were stamina issues. But thanks guys like you (who overemphasize Klitschko's chin issues) noone unfortunately tries to go to Klitschko's body.

MOREOVER: What you think is a weakness of Klitschko (3 KO losses in 55 fights) is of course in reality ONE OF THE BEST PERFORMANCES IN HEAVYWEIGHT HISTORY. YOU WILL HARDLY FIND anyone with more heavyweight fights and LESS KO-losses. Ali had 32 real heavyweight fights (both opponents 200+). Now if Ali has basically half as many fights as Klitschko then OF COURSE Ali has less KO-losses. Aside from a handful of other guys (like Foreman or Eric Esch) you will not find anyone with same amount of fights and less KO-losses than Klitschko.

Why would Ali need to knock either of them out anyway? Boxing isn't all about KO's, it's about being the better boxer. Ali certainly has them beat in other areas such as speed, footwork, accuracy...

EVERYONE HAS TO READ WHAT TheGreatA JUST WROTE:

• "Boxing isn't all about KOs"
• Ali beat them in footwork

Hahaha. Well, the last time I checked boxing _WAS_ about KOs and not footwork.

But it's exactly as I claimed: The good-old-time fans looove Ali shuffling around (= clowning around) and then scoring 11 KOs in his entire heavyweight career. They prefer chins to fists. And butterflies to knockdowns. Shows you AGAIN how overrated the 70ies were.

Hey, why not abolishing all weight divisions ... and make "Footwork divisions" instead. Or even better: Make a Heart division: "Division of the weak Hearts", and "Division of the Great Ringmanship".

Hahaha. Thank you for giving me the opportunity for new lines.

Facts such as:
Foreman was drugged
Liston was a bumbeater
Moore was a welterweight

Hey, don't trust me that Foreman was drugged. Trust Ali's co-trainer.
What? Are you claiming Liston was not beating bums?
Moore fought at 145 thus he qualifies as welterweight.

I've seen every filmed fight of Frazier's and believe me, the man could punch. I've also seen Byrd's fights and he is one of the most effective pillow-punchers in boxing history.

But you compare sub-200 opponents of Frazier with 200+ opponents of Byrd. Noone doubts that Frazier could KO some cruisers. But Haye is also a nobody at heavyweight. Who cares that he KOed some cruisers?

[knn]

Vitali couldn't beat an even older Lennox Lewis.

You know exactly that this fight is used by both sides to prove their point.

Old man Sanders finished off Wladimir in two.

Did Sanders actually also fight against Ali? How would we know how Ali would fare against Sanders? Don't bring him up.

Vitali himself is nearing 40 and had a 3 year layoff, yet he is at the top.

You see: Your point is "See how the division sucks". Exactly how I claimed: Whatever the Klitschkos do it's always the proof for the "bad state of the division" and never about the top state of the Klitschkos.

Wladimir in his early 20's was being knocked around the ring by the likes of Ross Puritty.

You know exactly that the loss against Puritty was a fluke. Probably like the loss of Foreman against bum Jimmy Young was a fluke (34-19, 11 KOs in 56 fights).

I guess this is proof of how bad the division is.

This is also what's wrong with the good-old-time nostalgists: They take 3 losses of 50+ fights AND MAKE CONCLUSIONS ABOUT HOW BAD WLADIMIR IS. Can you imagine I would take a bum (with 3 WINS of 50+ lost fights ) and make conclusions how GOOD the bum is?

And I think I have to remind everyone here Wlad's heavyweight record (both fighters 200+) is 52-3 while Ali's is merely 28-4 and Evan Field's is 24-10. IF you want to complain about heavies then complain about about Evan Fields. Hey, got a new idea for a new sig!

It's all speculation. The fact is that they beat more top ranked men in their own time and looked better doing it than today's bunch of heavyweights.

More ranked men? Do you have a proof for that?

[kpwestmo]

KNN Never ONCE DO U SAY WHY FOREMAN WAS "DRUGGED"?

HHAHA, let me guess, somehow your opinion makes it a "fact", as you claim that you only argue with.... PLEASE PLEASE tell me how it is a fact that foreman was drugged during his fight with ali?

or, maybe you could just admit that it is your OPINION... and as for all your other "facts"? yeah, numerically they are facts, but that does not help prove your point.. ANYONE can take statistics and use them to their advantage.... for instance, how you said liston was old, somone could say that an "experienced" Liston beat a Green Ali... while statistically, you posted some mathematical facts about ali and his career, BUT, the way you INTERPRET those "facts" are ENTIRELY YOU'RE ****ING OPINION, you doookie toothe'd euro garbage can... seriously, europe is just like ameica but dirtier, and the people are uglier and smell weird.... the boxers in europe, ehhh, not so much... they got the klitshcko brothers whom i like and respect as the best heavyweights of the modern, current fistic era.. i, unlike most people, actually enjoy wlad's technique, although he is kinda a wet biscuit at times... he could use some of his brothers bravado and balls... wlad is a class act, though... PhD, donates to charity, and is a technical beast in the ring. haha and he's the only HW with a six pack, well david haye too....so i like wlad.... wlad should go down as just as good of a HW as the rest of 'em... I think your main point is not so much to belittle Ali, as it for some weird reason, trying to show that the current wave of eastern euro HW champs are just as LEGIT as ALI... I think you try to pick apart Ali's resume because of the respect, or lack thereof, that the current heavies from europe get. Which i do agree, america is extremely biased towards european fighters... it is very ethnocentric, and at times, disgusting... HOWEVER, don't blame the beasts of the golden heavyweight era... they cant help it they were more entertaining and than the current heavies.... my conclusion: while there are some legit HW's today like the klitschko's, and... umm, well that's about it..... however, the klitschko brothers ARE NOT as exciting as Ali, frazier, and the rest of 'em, nor are they quite as skilled... they are hall of famers with great skill, but NO WHERE NEAR the american heavyweight's of hte golden ages...

[T.Horton]

holy crap. this is the most deluded freak on the internet since BritneySpearsGuy....

Knn, go to bed.

[Johnny Rebel]

Wlad dominated both Purrity and Brewster before punching himself out and in his loss against Sander he just got caught because he wasn't a very good defensive fighter and also his team underrated Sanders.

Those losses were a long time ago and Manny has molded Wlad into a complete fighter now as Wlad proved in the rematch with Brewster and also by not losing in 5 years while beating top ranked opponents. Wlad should be given credit for improving on his weaknesses.

Way too many people/haters just look at a boxers record and form their biased conclusions without seeing the fights and circumstances. There's so many variables in boxing that enables lesser fighters to beat better fighters which is part of what makes boxing such an exciting sport. When you get in the ring you're going to have off nights and when you're a Champion or a well known fighter a lesser fighter can give the fight of his life since he has nothing to lose, which is why we see so many upsets in boxing, especially in the HW division where one punch can so easily decide a fight...

[The Hammer]

holy crap. this is the most deluded freak on the internet since BritneySpearsGuy....

Knn, go to bed.

Knn is the best new poster we've had here in a while. You are the deluded freak.

[The Hammer]

Wlad dominated both Purrity and Brewster before punching himself out and in his loss against Sander he just got caught because he wasn't a very good defensive fighter and also his team underrated Sanders.

Those losses were a long time ago and Manny has molded Wlad into a complete fighter now as Wlad proved in the rematch with Brewster and also by not losing in 5 years while beating top ranked opponents. Wlad should be given credit for improving on his weaknesses.

Way too many people/haters just look at a boxers record and form their biased conclusions without seeing the fights and circumstances. There's so many variables in boxing that enables lesser fighters to beat better fighters which is part of what makes boxing such an exciting sport. When you get in the ring you're going to have off nights and when you're a Champion or a well known fighter a lesser fighter can give the fight of his life since he has nothing to lose, which is why we see so many upsets in boxing, especially in the HW division where one punch can so easily decide a fight...

good post.

[kpwestmo]

no, KNN is some loser that is biased against the country that has produced the best fighters in the univserse, HANDS DOWN... he is trying to make lemonade out of a **** sandwich that is known as european heavyweights (except klitshko brothers).... HE IS THE DELUDED FREAK, for posting his opinions and trying to pass them off as "facts".

KNN, i feel your pain about the klitschko's not getting the respect they deserve, but majority of the eastern euro heavies are JOKES that show how much in decline the sport of boxing has been in for the past two decades... KNN, america is the best country in the world, the richest country in the world(bhind luxembourg and those other small banking countries), produce the best fighters in the HISTORY of boxing! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE someone try to argue that america has not had BY FAR the best boxers of all time... Mexico is second...but mexicans are our brethren, mexican and american fighters are in the same league, since they are constantly fighting each other...while euro's dont want to come and get their wigsplit in america, can't say i really blame them, as majorirty KNOW they are not good enoguh to fight on american superior soil.

[kpwestmo]

KNN, or one of his fanboys that supports his crazy theory about ALI not being an all time great, im still waiting to hear why you say foreman was drugged? are you gonna say that is a fact as well? just like you said all your statistics are facts? NAY, anyone can se statistics to their advantage, you merely took some MEANINGLESS numbers and calculations and INTERPRETED them to make your argument seem legit... ill give it you to, you should be in law school with me, though. if you could just apply all that time and energy you put into trying to bash ali, into law, you would be a HELLUVA trial lawyer... if you were able to just convince ONE person with your bull****, then i would say you succeeded....