Just how good was Prince Naseem?

[dpfinley]

Too bad he won't make a big comeback...

[abdiel2k3]

Let's see the chronology here :

Dec. 11, 1995 - Espinosa UD Mantecas Medina to become WBC featherweight champ
Sept. 30, 1995 - Hamed TKO8 Steve Robinson, to become WBO featherweight champ
March 1, 1996 - Espinosa KO4 Cobrita Gonzalez, 1st defense (WBC)
March 16, 1996 - Hamed TKO8 Said Lawal, 1st defense (WBO)
July 6, 1996 - Espinosa UD Cesar Soto, 2nd defense (WBC)
June 8, 1996 - Hamed TKO2 Daniel Alicea, 2nd defense (WBO)
August 31, 1996 - Hamed TKO 11 Mantecas Medina, 3rd defense (WBO)
October 2, 1996 - Espinosa TKO8 Nobutoshi Hiranaka, 3rd defense (WBC)
November 9, 1996 - Hamed TKO2 Daniel Molina, 4th defense (WBO)
February 8, 1997 - Hamed TKO8 Tom Johnson, 5th defense (WBO) and annexed the IBF featherweight belt
May 3, 1997 - Hamed KO1 Billy Hardy, 6th defense (WBO), 1st (IBF)
May 17, 1997 - Espinosa TD8 Mantecas Medina, 4th defense (WBC)
June 19, 1997 - Hamed TKO2 Juan Cabrera, 7th defense (WBO), 2nd (IBF)
October 11, 1997 - Hamed KO7 Jose Badillo, 8th defense (WBO)
December 6, 1997 - Espinosa TKO6 Carlos Rios, 5th defense (WBC)
December 19, 1997 - Hamed KO4 Kevin Kelley, 9th defense (WBO)
April 18, 1998 - Hamed TKO7 Wilfredo Vazquez, 10th defense (WBO)
August 15, 1998 - Espinosa TD11 Juan Carlos Ramirez, 6th defense (WBC)
October 31, 1998 - Hamed UD12 Wayne McCullough, 11th defense (WBO)
November 11, 1998 - Espinosa TKO2 Kennedy McKinney, 7th defense (WBC)
April 10, 1999 - Hamed KO11 Paul Ingle, 12th defense (WBO)
May 15, 1999 - Espinosa (L)UD12 Cesar Soto, lost WBC featherweight belt
October 22, 1999 - Hamed UD12 Cesar Soto, annexed WBC featherweight belt

So who fought 90% of the top featherweights of the 90's here?
Espinosa - Medina(51-6-0), Gonzalez(37-3-0), Soto(43-6-2), Rios(39-0-1), Ramirez(14-0-0)
Hamed - Medina(52-7-0), Kelley(47-1-2), Soto(54-7-2), Vazquez(50-7-2)

Espinosa beat-up Medina and Soto first before Hamed fought them, and he TKO'd Cobrita Gonzalez who TKO'd Kelley. He never had the chance to lay his hands on Vazquez (who was WBA champ that time), IMO he would've handled him the same way he did to Kennedy McKinney who were small featherweights (they're natural 118~122 lbers).

All I'm saying here is, Hamed wasn't the best featherweight during the 90's, there was another champ named Luisito Espinosa who was unknown but nonetheless a very good fighter also. Perhaps with more skills than the very popular Prince Hamed. Hamed has more fights obviously, but that's a no brainer, Espinosa is based in the Phils. and getting fights here in Asia is a lot more difficult. BTW, it is not BS that Hamed avoided Espinosa and Riath Hamed offered to promote his fights, i heard it from the lips of Mr. Ronnie Nathanielsz, a writer of this site, commentating in one of Espinosa's fights.

Going back to the topic of this thread, i rate Naseem Hamed an eight (8), annexing the WBO, WBC & IBF belts is something.

wow
if this guy doesnt deserve karma for this much thought and facts
idk who would
give this guy some karma people

[Cletus Funk]

1) McCullough is a great bantamweight, never a top featherweight. Ingle annexed the IBF strap from the same Medina that Espinosa already beat twice. No disrespect to Robinson, but who has he fought? He would also later be KTFO'd by Ramirez whom Espinosa beat. Naseem was schooled by Barrera in 2001, i'm responding to the top feathers of the 90's only, so he's exluded from the list. Tom Johnson was a top featherweight, i agree.

2) Espinosa fought Soto twice before Hamed wrestled him and take his green WBC strap. He schooled Soto in the 1st and outboxed him in the 2nd (the judges gave it to Soto, but in my eyes he won that fight). Another thing, have you ever wondered why Hamed dropped this belt? Guty Espadas was mandatory and Espinosa was promised another shot at the title.

3) I won't argue that. Naseem had more oppurtunities. He was the popular man.

Good arguments but I'll have to disagree on a few points.

I don't see how your comments exclude Ingle from being a top FW & McCullough proved his worth at FW with his performances against Hamed and Morales.

Because Hamed lost to Barerra doesn't negate the fact that he was one of the top guys that he took on.

Robinson ended his career much in the same way as a lot of fighters, with a lot of losses of which Ramirez was one. In his prime he beat Duke McKenzie, Colin McMillan and Paul Hodkinson who were all former world champs. He was undoubtedly one of the top FW when Naz fought him and had defended his title 7 times.

Most people are of the opinion that it was Soto who wrestled Naz to death as he was scared ****less of getting KTFO.

I would assume that Hamed dropped his belt because he didn't want to be forced to fight guys like the one you mentioned as they weren't big box office. He was looking for fights like the Barerra one at that point.

[JOM'S]

wow
if this guy doesnt deserve karma for this much thought and facts
idk who would
give this guy some karma people

yeah as soon as my 24 hours is up, I will give him some....

[JOM'S]

Thanks for all your comments, very enlightening. I see that out of all those who have voted, over 93% have said the Prince was above average in ability. And as someone voted him 1/10, I can assume that was a hater...

I do believe Hamed is a great fighter but could not give him his due, cuz in my mind he did not answer the question that mattered to me....

its true that he fought with the best, but he also avoided the best such guys as Espinosa and JMM (which were great fighters at that time but albeit unknown)

[STEELHEAD]

Well Wayne MacColough lost to Scott Harrison whom you say that prince would have beaten easily anyweyz, he also lost to Morales. Basically he never amounted to anything great.

Kevin Kelly he just overpowered and outtoughed. Kelley came barging in and Prince was just, well stronger. They traded knockdowns like they were punches. Getting dropped 3 times didn't impress me.

Medina was good but that's it. Luisito Espinosa from our very own Phillipines beat him twice. Basically he lost to everyone who had skill. Tapia, Marquez, Gainer, comeback Ingle fight. Kinda like Soto, who was a bit protected.

A win over Ingle was pretty good.

Win against Vasquez was "ok". I only say this cuz he was 38 when he fought Prince. Johnson was also 34 so a win against them was "ok" for me but that's it.

Bungu lost to Ledwaba who also got TKOed by Pacman.

So yah Prince was good but bah not amazing. That Barrera loss killed the myth.

yeah, thats how i remember it.his pre-show antics rubbed me the wrong way. that barrera fight is one of the most enjoyable fights iv'e seen. funny, i started feeling sorry for the guy after barrera exposed him for what he was. i think when he got rid of his manager and his brother took over the prince became a pauper.

[t_tsuguri]

Overrated...I heard that prior to the Barrera fight his brother was showing him old Barrera footage...ie. Barrera before he changed his style, to feed his ego and give him a sense of security...the dude, in my opinion was a punk

[muay]

Good arguments but I'll have to disagree on a few points.

1) I don't see how your comments exclude Ingle from being a top FW & McCullough proved his worth at FW with his performances against Hamed and Morales.

2) Because Hamed lost to Barerra doesn't negate the fact that he was one of the top guys that he took on.

3) Robinson ended his career much in the same way as a lot of fighters, with a lot of losses of which Ramirez was one. In his prime he beat Duke McKenzie, Colin McMillan and Paul Hodkinson who were all former world champs. He was undoubtedly one of the top FW when Naz fought him and had defended his title 7 times.

4) Most people are of the opinion that it was Soto who wrestled Naz to death as he was scared ****less of getting KTFO.

5) I would assume that Hamed dropped his belt because he didn't want to be forced to fight guys like the one you mentioned as they weren't big box office. He was looking for fights like the Barerra one at that point.

1) Paul Ingle was champ by beating a shot Medina. McCullough was a great bantam champ, but as you've said Morales and Hamed tested him and was found wanting @ featherweight.

2) I agree. No, not at all, Barrera was topgun. I excluded him on purpose, limited the list up to '99 only in response to the other poster who mentioned top feathers of the 90's.

3) Robinson was a champ, but he was untested, he took on either old & smaller featherweights (guys moving up), untested domestic guys and ex-champs. Duke McKenzie who challenged him was a flyweight & bantamweight champ. Paul Hodkinson (ex-WBC champ), previously lost to Goyo Vargas. Ditto, Colin McMillan, untested ex-WBO champ previously lost to Palacios. Robinson is OK but he's not top IMO.

4) It's Soto's style to clinch after throwing some combos as a defensive move (like Ruiz) but the Prince would have none of it and body slams him to the canvass, Soto retaliates with some serious clinches and from then on it was an ugly street fight.

5) I agree. Both Espinosa and Espadas were High Risk/Low Reward fights for him. Settled instead for another 122-lber moving up and who they mistook as damaged goods after losing to Morales and to Junior Jones twice.

[WillieW]

Naz is the Elvis of boxing. He has been sighted throughout the world and everyone is awaiting his comeback......like Phoenix rising from the ashes. I saw him flipping burgers one day....then my buddy saw him greeting at Walmart. Naz will return and save boxing................not.

Naz was a very skilled and exciting boxer. He had some good wins and he was on his way to possibly becoming great. Then came MAB.

MAB not only beat Naz....he broke him down and beat him up for 12 rounds. Down right gave Naz a beat-down clinic. It would have been more merciful if MAB just KOed him. Instead the bully ended up with his head smashed in the corner via a pissed off MAB who didn't like Naz's clowning.

People claim that haters didn't like Naz because of his attitude. I'm not one of those. I don't like Naz not because he was arrogant, not because I think he was overrated, and not because I think his record was that padded.....I don't like him because he ran like a scared puppy the first time he met adversity. He could not handle getting back in the ring after that lose. He quit.........something he will never live down.

[Cletus Funk]

1) Paul Ingle was champ by beating a shot Medina. McCullough was a great bantam champ, but as you've said Morales and Hamed tested him and was found wanting @ featherweight.

2) I agree. No, not at all, Barrera was topgun. I excluded him on purpose, limited the list up to '99 only in response to the other poster who mentioned top feathers of the 90's.

3) Robinson was a champ, but he was untested, he took on either old & smaller featherweights (guys moving up), untested domestic guys and ex-champs. Duke McKenzie who challenged him was a flyweight & bantamweight champ. Paul Hodkinson (ex-WBC champ), previously lost to Goyo Vargas. Ditto, Colin McMillan, untested ex-WBO champ previously lost to Palacios. Robinson is OK but he's not top IMO.

4) It's Soto's style to clinch after throwing some combos as a defensive move (like Ruiz) but the Prince would have none of it and body slams him to the canvass, Soto retaliates with some serious clinches and from then on it was an ugly street fight.

5) I agree. Both Espinosa and Espadas were High Risk/Low Reward fights for him. Settled instead for another 122-lber moving up and who they mistook as damaged goods after losing to Morales and to Junior Jones twice.

Fair enough but you say Medina was shot. He beat Scott Harrison down the line for the world title.

I disagree that McCullough losing to Morales and Hamed devalues him as a FW...just about everyone mentioned on this thread would or did lose to these two.

On Robinson, McKenzie was also champ at Super Bantamweight and had come up through the same weight divisions as Espinosa, schooling Soto along the way. McMillan was a very talented fighter and only lost his title after dislocating his shoulder early in the fight.