A Look at Andre Ward, Bradley vs. Campbell Goes Bust

[OnePunch]

I feel what youre saying but it still goes to my point about Bradley. You talked about guys like Oscar & RJ but Bradley aint them. Sure he dont have to fight Campbell but Nate is probably the biggest money fight out there for Bradley right now unless he wants to jump to WW. I understand options but I have to gain something more then getting a Bradley fight because its big but its not huge. I dont want to say that Nate needed Kid Diamond at the time but he needed Kid Diamond at the time. He doesnt need Bradley. He may want him but he doesnt need him. I could easily see giving options to Pac or Floyd but Bradley? and Im a huge Nate and Bradly fan. I dont want to see them fight because I want them to fight other guys but still. Youre right that Bradly doesnt have to fight Nate but who else is he going to get for more money? He gets a nice purse and he gets to fight a smaller guy who just had trouble in his last fight with Funeka where draining weight all that time may have finally caught up with him.

Now if Bradley would get stripped for taking the fight then I understand but it doesnt seem like that is the case. Now, I could be way off because I didnt even read the opening post of this thread but I just heard where the next guy talked about options and I just feel like Bradley isnt a big enough name to be getting options for stuff. If Shaw ask for options on Bradley, that stuff will come back on him and hurt him more in the long run then help him. However, I guess it depeneds on what the options are. How many fights did he want?

No offense, but I'm not going to get into specifics about how many options were being discussed or anything. This just isnt the place for that. As for your opinion that Bradley isnt a big enough name for Shaw to demand options, well thats somewhat true, but Shaw has Bradley therefore he has control of the WBO title, and THAT gives him the leverage. Also, since Shaw has a good bit of control over the Showtime dates, he can put Bradley in with just about anyone. Sure, a fight with Nate would be for a bit more money, but not enough more to offset the risk of losing control of the title. And thats what it is really about for a promoter. Until that fighter crosses over into the mainstream, you NEED the titles for leverage, and to entice other fighters to fight your guy. Alot of people like to say the belts dont matter, but until a fighter gets that mainstream appeal, the titles are all they have. Even guys who are already very well known STILL want the titles. Klitschko, Cotto, Dawson, Marquez, Pavlik, Mosley, etc., etc. So by controlling a title, the promoter thus guarantees himself future fights for that title, whether its through options, or by signing the #1 contender, like King did with Nate when Nate was #1 to Diaz. And believe me, had we not signed with King, #1 or no #1, I doubt we would have gotten the Diaz fight.

[OnePunch]

It's also worth mentioning that havng the titles doesnt always guarantee that youre going to entice other fighters to fight you. We couldnt get ANYONE when Nate had all 3 belts. Marquez, Diaz rematch, Pac, Casamayor, Peterson, Katsidis, Khan, etc., etc., and we were forced to do mandos with Guz and Funeka, because there were no other fights out there. Now part of that had to do with nobody wanting to work with King, but the other part was that since we were with King, nobody could get options or anything, so they had no upside in fighting Nate. The titles weren't enough to overcome the other aspects of it.......

[DLT]

No offense, but I'm not going to get into specifics about how many options were being discussed or anything. This just isnt the place for that. As for your opinion that Bradley isnt a big enough name for Shaw to demand options, well thats somewhat true, but Shaw has Bradley therefore he has control of the WBO title, and THAT gives him the leverage. Also, since Shaw has a good bit of control over the Showtime dates, he can put Bradley in with just about anyone. Sure, a fight with Nate would be for a bit more money, but not enough more to offset the risk of losing control of the title. And thats what it is really about for a promoter. Until that fighter crosses over into the mainstream, you NEED the titles for leverage, and to entice other fighters to fight your guy. Alot of people like to say the belts dont matter, but until a fighter gets that mainstream appeal, the titles are all they have. Even guys who are already very well known STILL want the titles. Klitschko, Cotto, Dawson, Marquez, Pavlik, Mosley, etc., etc. So by controlling a title, the promoter thus guarantees himself future fights for that title, whether its through options, or by signing the #1 contender, like King did with Nate when Nate was #1 to Diaz. And believe me, had we not signed with King, #1 or no #1, I doubt we would have gotten the Diaz fight.

You and I arent really in much disagreement on this since you turned it down because Bradley wasnt big enough for that. No doubt you want the title but I think Nate has a name that guys will come after sooner or later and he has the supposed lack of size from moving up that would make guys take the risk. I personaly dont think that was a great move from Shaw because I dont think he's going to fight someone for more money then he would get against Nate and I think the other fights could be bigger risk, no offence. I actually think Nate would be ideal for Hatton right now but I guess you would know about that. Anyways, good luck. I hope Nate gets in the mix soon but I hope he didnt kill himself too many times to make weight because even when you finally move up, you might not ever be the same again

[javelin_fangs]

What are you talkin about? I didnt say that I didnt read what he said. I said I didnt read the bigpoppapump article but I was reading it at the time you wrote this post. You act like I dissed him or something. Im just giving him my opinion and he's answering me back. I like to hear what he has to say. I respect him and where he's coming from but its not like that you cant give your own opinion. What if the guy was Bob Arum? Would you agree with everything he said then? What if he was Don King? Im just talking to him straight up. Im not saying Im right. He could be right on everything and can explain it to me when he responds but stop bowing down to people automaticaly because its there job. Its Matt Millen's job to be the GM of the Lions but he didnt exactly do a great job, did he. Again, that has nothing to do with this guy. Im not dissin him. I actually want to hear his thoughts on the situation. I have some questions and he can answer them if he wants.

I didnt know the 1st time that he was a co promoter but when I still stand by what I wrote and when I wrote him back the 2nd time I still came with my perpesctive. He can tell me where he thinks Im wrong and so on but you act like I just have to bite my tongue and he knows 100% the right thing to do. Promoters and agents get fired every single day. Again, no disrespect to him but Im just telling you where Im coming from and I am a Nate & Bradly fan. Besides, if you look at what both he and I said, we're pretty much in agreement on the fight. I thought he should turn it down and he did

Yeah yeah. I got you, but I'm just saying man, it's not like we can all just take the Steve Kim approach and demand that things be a certain way. There are some things that don't fit into a cookie cutter mold.

For example, Steve Kim is on the high horse about how HBO overpaid for Williams-Wright and Dawson-Tarver II. He also practically gizzed himself when he found out that Lou DiBella had options on Andre Dirrell and refused them after the Dirrell-Stevens fight.

So, let's go through this one by one; do you think a network like HBO should overpay for the right to build fighters like Williams and Dawson into the type of attractions that become "worthy" of making demands of their opponents? Because without Williams-Wright and Dawson-Tarver II neither Williams nor Dawson become bigger names in the biz. Then if Tim Bradley is not big enough to warrant options, what do you think about Curtis Stevens getting Lou DiBella options on Andre Dirrell?

I'm not trying to slam you. I'm trying to point out that things happen. Gary Shaw isn't the only one who demands options for fights against fighters who aren't household names. Dirrell is an Olympic bronze medallist, but he didn't have a promoter and all of the boxing writers hate him. So, he had to offer up options just to get a fight with a lesser accomplished prospect who had a powerful promoter in order to get himself on HBO. The only reason why it came out was because DiBella refused the options and a writer thought that it was funny.

[OnePunch]

You and I arent really in much disagreement on this since you turned it down because Bradley wasnt big enough for that. No doubt you want the title but I think Nate has a name that guys will come after sooner or later and he has the supposed lack of size from moving up that would make guys take the risk. I personaly dont think that was a great move from Shaw because I dont think he's going to fight someone for more money then he would get against Nate and I think the other fights could be bigger risk, no offence. I actually think Nate would be ideal for Hatton right now but I guess you would know about that. Anyways, good luck. I hope Nate gets in the mix soon but I hope he didnt kill himself too many times to make weight because even when you finally move up, you might not ever be the same again

If I were in Shaw's shoes, I cant say I wouldnt have done the same thing. Unfortunately Nate still fits into that "high risk - low reward" catagory. All Nate needs though is ONE fight against any of these guys...Bradley, Urango, Kotelnik-Khan winner, Ortiz-Maidena winner, Hatton, etc., etc., to show what he is capable of at 140. And hopefully in the next 2 weeks we can make some moves to that end. We just have to get King out of the way first.....

[DLT]

If I were in Shaw's shoes, I cant say I wouldnt have done the same thing. Unfortunately Nate still fits into that "high risk - low reward" catagory. All Nate needs though is ONE fight against any of these guys...Bradley, Urango, Kotelnik-Khan winner, Ortiz-Maidena winner, Hatton, etc., etc., to show what he is capable of at 140. And hopefully in the next 2 weeks we can make some moves to that end. We just have to get King out of the way first.....

see, right there Im 50/50 again. Is Nate still that high risk/low reward guy at 140 that he was at LW? I dont think Nate is a big money star by any means but I actually see him as more of a low risk/high reward guy at 140. I beleive that most of the 140 pounders probably feel that they are too big and good for Nate while he brings more money then anyone "who willl fight them". Like Bradley could hold out for Khan but I actually think a guy like Kahn would fight Nate before he fought Bradley. I also think a guy like Ortiz would fight Nate before he fought Bradley. Thats what Im saying. At LW, Nate was like Bradley. Guys rather fight other people then fight him but I think more would pick him over Bradley at 140, e****aly since a number of those guys would already have a title at the time or a guy like Hatton who doesnt need a title, would fight Nate 1st.

Again no offence but if Im Shaw and Im not getting stripped of the title then Im running to the Nate fight. After what I saw against Funeka, I would think that Bradley would beat him and make solid money. Thats a gamble Im willing to take. Im Im you guys then I wouldnt even really be trying to go for Bradley right now. He didnt look like P4P against Holt but I think that is too risky of a fight to take right off the bat at 140 "unless" you feel like me in that Nate maybe done and you want to get him paid before he loses to a bum. I would try to fight EM since he wants to come back and then I bet guys like Ortiz or Kahn will come running after they win. I also think Shaw was just trying to get one in since he saw Nate vulnerable with the King thing and he thought that it was his chance to steal a guy. He probably acted like he would do all this for Nate but as soon as Nate didnt like the deal, he was like "well no fight then". That tells you right there what he's about

[DLT]

Yeah yeah. I got you, but I'm just saying man, it's not like we can all just take the Steve Kim approach and demand that things be a certain way. There are some things that don't fit into a cookie cutter mold.

For example, Steve Kim is on the high horse about how HBO overpaid for Williams-Wright and Dawson-Tarver II. He also practically gizzed himself when he found out that Lou DiBella had options on Andre Dirrell and refused them after the Dirrell-Stevens fight.

So, let's go through this one by one; do you think a network like HBO should overpay for the right to build fighters like Williams and Dawson into the type of attractions that become "worthy" of making demands of their opponents? Because without Williams-Wright and Dawson-Tarver II neither Williams nor Dawson become bigger names in the biz. Then if Tim Bradley is not big enough to warrant options, what do you think about Curtis Stevens getting Lou DiBella options on Andre Dirrell?

I'm not trying to slam you. I'm trying to point out that things happen. Gary Shaw isn't the only one who demands options for fights against fighters who aren't household names. Dirrell is an Olympic bronze medallist, but he didn't have a promoter and all of the boxing writers hate him. So, he had to offer up options just to get a fight with a lesser accomplished prospect who had a powerful promoter in order to get himself on HBO. The only reason why it came out was because DiBella refused the options and a writer thought that it was funny.

I didnt read where Kim said that but if Lou turned down the Dirrell options then he's an idiot. I actually think Dirrell can be the man one day. Im not exactly going to back HBO here after they turned down Taylor-Froch and picked up Dawson-Tarver II. They are dumb for that. You can try to hype Dawson all you want but why a Tarver rematch and why pay alot for it? Talk about super high risk/low reward, thats it and you saw what happened. The fight was garbage and now everyone hates Dawson while the Taylor-Froch fight was beast. Theyre definatly hit & miss. You just said that Dirrell didnt have a promoter so thats different. Some options are real options and some options are basically like signing. Dirrell probably took the options because he wanted to get on Showtime and he probably thought it wasnt a bad thing to deal with Dibella since he had no promoter at the time. Thats business and I dont mind that but the Shaw situation is different. Nate aint Dirrell. Nate has done some things and had a good name. Dirrell was a basic nobody at the time. He had the Gold but he wasnt the Golden Boy so he needed that way more than Nate needs Bradley and Dirrell probably felt that he would beat Stevens with ease anyways and get a solid promoter so it was no big deal to him

[OnePunch]

see, right there Im 50/50 again. Is Nate still that high risk/low reward guy at 140 that he was at LW? I dont think Nate is a big money star by any means but I actually see him as more of a low risk/high reward guy at 140. I beleive that most of the 140 pounders probably feel that they are too big and good for Nate while he brings more money then anyone "who willl fight them". Like Bradley could hold out for Khan but I actually think a guy like Kahn would fight Nate before he fought Bradley. I also think a guy like Ortiz would fight Nate before he fought Bradley. Thats what Im saying. At LW, Nate was like Bradley. Guys rather fight other people then fight him but I think more would pick him over Bradley at 140, e****aly since a number of those guys would already have a title at the time or a guy like Hatton who doesnt need a title, would fight Nate 1st.

Again no offence but if Im Shaw and Im not getting stripped of the title then Im running to the Nate fight. After what I saw against Funeka, I would think that Bradley would beat him and make solid money. Thats a gamble Im willing to take. Im Im you guys then I wouldnt even really be trying to go for Bradley right now. He didnt look like P4P against Holt but I think that is too risky of a fight to take right off the bat at 140 "unless" you feel like me in that Nate maybe done and you want to get him paid before he loses to a bum. I would try to fight EM since he wants to come back and then I bet guys like Ortiz or Kahn will come running after they win. I also think Shaw was just trying to get one in since he saw Nate vulnerable with the King thing and he thought that it was his chance to steal a guy. He probably acted like he would do all this for Nate but as soon as Nate didnt like the deal, he was like "well no fight then". That tells you right there what he's about

Nate is still "high-risk low-reward" mainly because of his age. Nobody wants to fight him unless they are getting big money, or unless they have to. Why? Because you can bet your ass that if one of them DID manage to beat Nate, then the other guys in the division (or their promoters, or the media) would just spin it as "Nate was shot", "Nate got old", etc., etc, the same way that Diaz went from "The #1 lightweight" and "The future of 135" etc., etc, to "overrated" and "exposed" once Nate beat him. Its all bull****. This whole game is about who controls who, and whats in it for them. Period.

[MANGLER]

Bradley-Campbell woulda been sweet. That sucks.

[-Antonio-]

Why do atheists refuse to understand why people thank God after fights/games? You thank God for giving you the strength to do what you do. It doesn't mean you think God actively participated in the outcome, but without God's blessing you can't be as strong as you are with it. It's not that hard to understand.

I just find it annoying when a guy feels the need to thank god on every public forum like it's the sole reasont hey acheived something. I wanted to strangle Dwight Howard when he said something like, "we just needed god on our side." No yall just needed to step up and knock down some three pointers.