Quit Complaining About Alphabets, Just Ignore Them

[MJ406]

See my earlier post and the specific examples I gave:

yeah but your example doesn't apply to all, as it's one paper

and again I don't know if this

"If even Showtime think paper belt holder = world champion, and Ring/lineal title holder = also ran, what hope is there?"

is entirely true, because during the Spinks-Latimore fight, the commentator showed his top 10 rankings for the 154 weight class and pointed out that 5 of his top 10 (Sergio Martinez, Paul Williams, Vernon Forrest, Daniel Santos, and Sergiy Dzinziruk)

all held some sort of recognized title

so I don't see where you come across as saying that Showtime thinks that when one of their broadcasters simply brought up the fact that these 5 men held some sort of recognized title .. and he never referred to any of the five as world Champs, in fact he poked fun at the fact five men in one division held a championship.

but yes it's true a majority of Media outlets are very un informed regarding Pro Boxing (boxing's fallen off a big as a big time sport, why should the media care .. again no boxing isn't dying, but in the US, it's behind baseball, football and basketball for popularity.)

and they'll only acknowledge the Alphabet belt holders simply because it's easier weather that's fair or not is a whole nother story but all the major sanctioning bodies have websites and finding out the champ for each is quite easy to do

[MJ406]

It may yet do, and his last fights against Hatton and DLH were at least as popular with the public as that would have been. If it does happen it sure as hell won't be because of the mandatory system - it'll be because it's a fight the public want to see. Pac has said several times recently that he'll gladly fight JMM at 140.


I already gave you Tyson-Spinks.

Another is Pavlik-Abraham, which Arum wanted to duck, but which looks like happening now due to public pressure. The mandatory system would never have made that happen.


They won't make the most money if the public don't want to see the fight.

DLH you almost can't use, just cuz the mans so popular he could fight Mike Tyson right now and the fight would sell .. regardless if the public wants the fight or not I have no doubts in Oscar's selling power. see below

I don't think a large majority or the public wanted DLH/Pacquiao .. De La Hoya made that fight because he's a big name, and can do so.

as for Hatton, well he already has a rabid fan base, and a top 10 Pound For Pound fighter so Pacquiao fighting him was a logical choice.

and regarding Pavlik-Abraham is it really "the public" forcing the fight .. or Bob Arum trying to get Kelly's credibility as a top fighter back. Because after the Hopkins loss, Kelly's stock took a hit and his comeback fight was a PPV vs mandatory challenger Rubio .. of course after that he's facing Mora

so do you really think the Public is forcing the fight vs Abraham or is it more Pavlik running out of credible opponents, that he has to step up

because yeah he (Pavlik) can get away with fighting the Mora's or John Duddy's of the world

but he's already fighting Mora, and John Duddy lost.

is the public really forcing Abraham as an opponent for Pavlik, or is Abe the best name available?

because I don't think the public was falling over it's chair in excitement over Trinidad vs Roy Jones Jr.

(keep in mind many ragged on this fight, called it a waste of time etc)

yet it still sold very well on PPV.

[/QUOTE]They won't make the most money if the public don't want to see the fight.[/QUOTE]

I think that quote is true when you apply it to big names .. as yes the fight itself Trinidad/Jones doesn't look very appealing .. but BIG names sell in boxing, be it De La Hoya, or in this case Roy Jones Jr.

and they don't even have to be in a fight that will sell necessarily ... it's the fact that they can sell on name value alone.

the fact that it was Trinidad returning was the sell.

not necessarily the match up. Because lets face it, after 2 1/2 years who really expected Tito to be competitive vs Jones Jr. fighting at a weight he's never fought at.

[JakeNDaBox]

Don't you think that the fact that The Ring title isn't promoted anywhere near as seriously in the mainstream media as the alphabet belts are had something to do with this?

No, I think the fact that The Ring fails to recognize any lineage or title claim of any kind other than its own restored titles is the reason it's failed to catch on. I have more to say on this, but will get to it later in your post...

You're criticising Casa because prior to JMM he fought his alphabet mandatories instead of fighting the best contender in the division (I don't think he should be criticised for fighting the P4P #2). I would say the cause of that problem was primarily the alphabet organisations and their corrupt rankings.

Revisionist history strikes again. You're reading the Ring/Rafael/Iole/ESPN version. Casamayor was stripped of his title for FAILING to face his mandatory challenger. The problem was that he knew going into the Corrales fight that the winner would have to face David Diaz. He won the title, but deciced to instead pursue more lucrative options (a rematch with Freitas chief among them), then acted surprised when he was stripped.

That side of the story is ALWAYS left out, primarily because the "major" writers don't give a **** about any rules the alphabets attempt to put in place/enforce. If you ask the folks at The Ring, every move the alphabets make is on a whim, when in fact it's their own failure to research that leads to biased reports.

Not to say the alphabets aren't flawed - they are and then some. But just because one side is wrong, doesn't always make the other side right. that's the problem with The Ring - their ONLY argument whenever called out on championships and rankings is "we're better than the alphabets." So, no, I won't support a policy whose only goal is to outdo what's viewed as the most corrupt en****** in the sport. Set the bar higher, and you'll gain my support.

The Ring title isn't perfect but it's better than four sanctioning bodies that don't even rate each others' fighters, and whose rankings are laughable.

See what I mean.

If The Ring title had been given proper prominence in the mainstream media, public pressure would sooner or later have forced Casa to fight the real contenders, IMO, just as it eventually forced Spinks to fight Tyson, which he'd probably never have done if The Ring title hadn't existed.

Tyson-Spinks is a ridiculous comparison, considering the amount$$$ that were there to be made. The fight literally provided Spinks' retirement fund, which is the ONLY reason he took the fight. But even at that, and this is piggybacking on what Terry noted earlier, there are few fighters on the planet who give a crap about public pressure. If Spinks cared that much about what the public pressure, he wouldn't have milked his reign for as long he did.

But so long as The Ring remains apologetic everytime one of their champions pursues money rather than top challenges, then why should any validity be lent to their policy? The only argument to be made is that it promotes the best to fight each other in the event of filling a title vacancy. But once crowned, the worst a champ suffers is a negative article or two from the editor.

And in any case I'm not advocating that the alphabets be scrapped (which is a completely unrealistic goal in any case), merely that the media should acknowledge The lineal champion as the world champion and the belt holders as belt holders.

Do you think it's right that the mainstream media describes Kotelnik rather than Hatton as the world Jnr Welterweight champion?

And here's where I pick up from my initial response...

The problem is that The Ring champ and the lineal champ isn't always one and the same. Yet there are now a new generation of boxing fans suddenly tossing around the world "lineal." The Ring editors are the ones who opted to break such links in the late 1980's - and along the lines of most fighters mentality, their decision was based on money far more than morality.

Fifteen years later, they decide that it's time to reinvent the wheel "for the good of the sport." Yet they pick the history they want to recognize (Lennox, Hopkins and Tszyu retroactively rewarded championships), the parts they choose to ignore (Michalczewski, Jorge Arce, Pongsaklek and Tokuyama never recognized as lineal champs), and the parts they elect to improvise (****ting on the alphabets yet recognizing Roy as their champ SOLELY based on owning three major titles).

The Ring has thrived on the ignorance of boxing fans who only followed title lineage through their pages. Cyber Boxing Zone has done a remarkable job in tracking lineage, as has Boxingscene ever since Cliff Rold arrived. As a tribute to both, I ran a four-part series on this site a couple of months ago dedicated to the crowning and recognizing of lineal champions.

I don't believe boxing fans should blindly follow any one policy. To be honest, I don't even believe in the policy of crowning a champion, for the simple fact that whoever is crowned will always find ways to explore every possible loophole in efforts to make the most money while traveling the path of least resistance. I'd rather see fighters ranked 1-10, with the #1 spot ALWAYS based on merit. That's the only way top fighters will continuet to face each other. If #2 is beating 3-10, and #1 is cherry picking, #2 moves to #1, as opposed to #1 contender beating 2-10, while Champion fights whomever he pleases.

Other sports crown champions, but it's not a title that carries over for years on end. No matter how good a team, they still have to earn the designation all over again the next year, and the year after that, and so on.

[OnePunch]

so do you really think the Public is forcing the fight vs Abraham or is it more Pavlik running out of credible opponents, that he has to step up

Bingo.....

[OnePunch]

Revisionist history strikes again. You're reading the Ring/Rafael/Iole/ESPN version. Casamayor was stripped of his title for FAILING to face his mandatory challenger. The problem was that he knew going into the Corrales fight that the winner would have to face David Diaz. He won the title, but deciced to instead pursue more lucrative options (a rematch with Freitas chief among them), then acted surprised when he was stripped.

That side of the story is ALWAYS left out, primarily because the "major" writers don't give a **** about any rules the alphabets attempt to put in place/enforce. If you ask the folks at The Ring, every move the alphabets make is on a whim, when in fact it's their own failure to research that leads to biased reports.

Spot on Jake. And Casamayor also got stripped of the WBC interim title later for refusing the Santa Cruz rematch that the WBC ordered. (one of the few instances where the WBC actually followed their own rules)

[Shadow boxer 3]

Kessler hasn't defended his Ring belt against any of the top 10 contenders because he keeps fighting alphabet mandatories against journeymen. If The Ring title had greater prominence relative to the alphabet titles, Kessler would be far more likely to have been fighting top 10 fighters.

thats cause Kessler doesnt hold the RING belt. he's ranked #1 in the division but the RING belt has been vacant every since Calzaghe move up to 175

[Dave Rado]

thats cause Kessler doesnt hold the RING belt. he's ranked #1 in the division but the RING belt has been vacant every since Calzaghe move up to 175

Sorry I should have said that if The Ring belt had greater prominence, Kessler and Bute would probably have fought by now to determine who the lineal title holder is.

[FMJ The Best]

No thread is complete without the mention of Floyd Mayweather so I will do it.

Floyd Mayweather.

That is all.