Crowning And Recognizing A Lineal Champion – Part IV

[BIGPOPPAPUMP]

By Jake Donovan - The last leg of the series examines the sport’s little big men: bantamweight, junior bantamweight, flyweight, junior flyweight and strawweight. [details]

[MANGLER]

I didn't know the Ring was no longer creating title lineage based on unification of IBF/WBA/WBC belts. That's ******. Just 1 more obstacle to real champs gettin the props they should.

[giacomino]

I said this on an earlier post, but it 's worth saying again: The fact that Naito is the linear flyweight champion has as much relevance as Erdei being the linear light heavy champion. The linear title is meaningless in an era when champions like Naito/Erdei stay home and don't ever have to face the best opposition in their division. Pong was the "linear flyweight champion" for years and avoided any contact with the best in the division.

[Testdead]

How is Adamack the lineal champion? it was Haye who held the RING, WBC, WBO, WBA titles.

Cunningham won Bells stripped IBF title who then lost his vacated title to Adamck.

There is no linear champion at 200lbs.

[JakeNDaBox]

How is Adamack the lineal champion? it was Haye who held the RING, WBC, WBO, WBA titles.

Cunningham won Bells stripped IBF title who then lost his vacated title to Adamck.

There is no linear champion at 200lbs.

Adamek and Cunningham were the top two rated cruiserweights in the world at the time of their fight, at which point Haye had already left for heavyweight.

[JakeNDaBox]

I said this on an earlier post, but it 's worth saying again: The fact that Naito is the linear flyweight champion has as much relevance as Erdei being the linear light heavy champion. The linear title is meaningless in an era when champions like Naito/Erdei stay home and don't ever have to face the best opposition in their division. Pong was the "linear flyweight champion" for years and avoided any contact with the best in the division.

Yes, we heard you this first time.

Regardless of their reigns, it doesn't give anyone the right to erase boxing history. Just because THE RING stopped recognizing lineal champs (and only because they went bankrupt and LITERALLY couldn't afford to recognize them) doesn't mean those champions ceased to exist.

And while I don't disagree on Erdei, whose reign has been shameful to say the least, where is it said that Pong avoided the other flyweights? He was willing to come to America to fight Arce in July '05 - Top Rank pulled the plug on that fight (before eventually canceling the entire show).

Beyond that, how many other stateside promoters will put up any kind of money to bring Pong, Dice-K or any other worthwhile Asian lower weight fighter to the states? And how many are willing to send their kids over there? Castillo was regularly shipped off because Top Rank didn't view him as any more than PPV undercard filler in the states. So they sent him where the money was.

Nonito Donaire will most likely enjoy an unspectacular reign. Why? Because Top Rank, while doing its best to line his pockets, won't offer more than a six-pack and a sandwich for his opposition.

If/when Naito fights Koki Kameda, you're looking at the most significant flyweight fight possibly in decades. Sure it might not mean much in the states, but if American promoters would kill to get even 1/10th of the viewing audience Naito-Kameda would draw in Japan.

[Testdead]

Adamek and Cunningham were the top two rated cruiserweights in the world at the time of their fight, at which point Haye had already left for heavyweight.

Has nothing to do with it. In a division so fractured you cannot possibly be given that title without at least winning 2-3 titles.

Maccarinelli, Fragomini, Huck, Mormeck all have claims to be 1 or 2.

like i said Cunningham won a stripped titlew from the linear champion.

In no way is adamak the linear champ until he beats at least two of the guys above.

[giacomino]

Yes, we heard you this first time.

Regardless of their reigns, it doesn't give anyone the right to erase boxing history. Just because THE RING stopped recognizing lineal champs (and only because they went bankrupt and LITERALLY couldn't afford to recognize them) doesn't mean those champions ceased to exist.

And while I don't disagree on Erdei, whose reign has been shameful to say the least, where is it said that Pong avoided the other flyweights? He was willing to come to America to fight Arce in July '05 - Top Rank pulled the plug on that fight (before eventually canceling the entire show).

Beyond that, how many other stateside promoters will put up any kind of money to bring Pong, Dice-K or any other worthwhile Asian lower weight fighter to the states? And how many are willing to send their kids over there? Castillo was regularly shipped off because Top Rank didn't view him as any more than PPV undercard filler in the states. So they sent him where the money was.

Nonito Donaire will most likely enjoy an unspectacular reign. Why? Because Top Rank, while doing its best to line his pockets, won't offer more than a six-pack and a sandwich for his opposition.

If/when Naito fights Koki Kameda, you're looking at the most significant flyweight fight possibly in decades. Sure it might not mean much in the states, but if American promoters would kill to get even 1/10th of the viewing audience Naito-Kameda would draw in Japan.

Re: The States. I agree with your point. Many Americans don't appreciate the lighter fighters, and it's a shame. Kameda seems to be trying to break into the market, but it's not easy when all the promoters want to sell are boring heavyweights. Would be nice to get top Asian fighters and guys like Narvaez, Solis, etc. on regular (or even occasional) shows.

Re: Pong. It was ****** that Acre fought 4-5 fights as interim champion for a year while Pong was champion and they never fought. A lot of people can say they wanted to fight somebody (Sturm vs Abraham comes to mind), but the fact is it never happened. And look at Pong's opposition as champion. He fought a ton of Erdei-like defenses as champion. Six of his defenses were against fighters who lost or drew in their previous fight. His best opposition was probably Naito and Myekeni. Pong in his prime was a fighting machine but he never fought anywhere near the division's best. I stand by my statement

Re: Naito-Kameda most significant flyweight fight in decades. Maybe in Japan. Would love to see it, although I suspect Kameda will win one of the other titles and they will never meet. However, in this decade, I would pick Darchinyan-Pacheco (both undefeated, one a long-time champion) as a more significant fight, and maybe Darchinyan-Donaire, because they both launched potential superstar careers against top competition. As you said, Donaire may not reach his potential because he may never get another Darchinyan-like fight the way things are going

[JakeNDaBox]

Has nothing to do with it. In a division so fractured you cannot possibly be given that title without at least winning 2-3 titles.

Maccarinelli, Fragomini, Huck, Mormeck all have claims to be 1 or 2.

like i said Cunningham won a stripped titlew from the linear champion.

In no way is adamak the linear champ until he beats at least two of the guys above.

The belt that was at stake in Adamek-Cunningham (or even in Cunningham-Wlodarczyk I and II for that matter) has nothing to do with it. THIS is where I tend to agree with The Ring, that people focus too much on title holders and automatically factoring them into the equation.

How exactly do any of the others have as much of a claim?

Enzo's best win to date came against Braithwaite.

On Fragomini... talk to me after his fight w/ Wlodarczyk. At which point, even if he wins, he still won't rate higher than Cunningham. Beyond that, his resume is atrocious.

Jean-Marc Mormeck, let me think... oh that's right, I saw him on the back of a milk carton the other day.

Huck is most certainly a Top 3-5 cruiserweight, and the only one of the lot who could've contested Adamek having a higher seed going into last December's fight.

But that said, if Huck were to fight and beat Adamek, do you then wait for Cunningham-Huck II to crown a king? If Adamek were to win, is that enough, or is a Cunningham rematch in order.

That's about as deep as I can go in putting the cruiserweight title on ice. Sorry, but I couldn't give a flying **** about the other names in regards to re-establishing cruiserweight lineage.

The odd thing about your argument is that Adamek's reign seems to be one of the few that's close to being universally accepted.

[JakeNDaBox]

Re: The States. I agree with your point. Many Americans don't appreciate the lighter fighters, and it's a shame. Kameda seems to be trying to break into the market, but it's not easy when all the promoters want to sell are boring heavyweights. Would be nice to get top Asian fighters and guys like Narvaez, Solis, etc. on regular (or even occasional) shows.

Re: Pong. It was ****** that Acre fought 4-5 fights as interim champion for a year while Pong was champion and they never fought. A lot of people can say they wanted to fight somebody (Sturm vs Abraham comes to mind), but the fact is it never happened. And look at Pong's opposition as champion. He fought a ton of Erdei-like defenses as champion. Six of his defenses were against fighters who lost or drew in their previous fight. His best opposition was probably Naito and Myekeni. Pong in his prime was a fighting machine but he never fought anywhere near the division's best. I stand by my statement

Re: Naito-Kameda most significant flyweight fight in decades. Maybe in Japan. Would love to see it, although I suspect Kameda will win one of the other titles and they will never meet. However, in this decade, I would pick Darchinyan-Pacheco (both undefeated, one a long-time champion) as a more significant fight, and maybe Darchinyan-Donaire, because they both launched potential superstar careers against top competition. As you said, Donaire may not reach his potential because he may never get another Darchinyan-like fight the way things are going

I guess the point I was making was that the other top flyweights weren't racing to fight Pong. It's an occupational hazard when you have four titlists from four different parts of the world. I agree with you that Pong and plenty of others need(ed) to realize that the title is WORLD champion.

Darchinyan-Pacheco was damn significant, I don't disagree. But how many people saw it? I know that popularity doesn't determine everything, but the 50 million or so who will watch a Naito-Kameda fight is a healthy mix of popularity AND talent, with the talent coming on both sides.