The 20 Greatest Cruiserweights of All-Time

[crold1]

Actually, Dominguez beat Nestor Giovannini, who was briefly the WBO cruiserweight champion. His losses to Nelson and Maccarinelli were when he was far past his prime. Kind of makes my point as to why I disagree with the "champions you beat" rankings. Maccarinelli would get credit for beating a nearly 37-year=old Dominiquez who had been fighting as a heavyweight for several years and was nearly a decade removed from being a top cruiserweight. Using such a measuring stick, think of all the mediocre fighters who would get credit for beating Ray Robinson or Roberto Duran at the end of their careers?
Dominguez was just one example of this. Fabrice Tiozza, although he lost to Hill, could very easily be in the top 10 list of, as the title sez, the "20 greatest cruiserweights of all time." Ignoring the fact that he beat McCallum, Eric Lucas, Silvio Branco and Michalczewski at light heavy, Tiozza outpointed your no, 18 Miller and then made four defenses before getting KO'd by Hill.

So, really, was, say, Jeff Lampkins your #14 and a career B-level contender who won a title in the 1980s and made one defense a better cruiserweight than Tiozza? Was Miller a better cruiserweight than Tiozza, who beat him for the title and made the same number of defenses?
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Domiguez got credit for his win over Giovanni; I said five losses. Not that he didn't beat any of them. He fought Giovanni, Wamba, Gomez, Nelson and, yes, Maccarinelli is a factor but even if I remove him AND Nelson he doesn't move up into the top twenty here. Yes, he had five defenses, but they only count for a \1/4 point apiece because the title was split four ways.

In a list like this Robinson would lose as much credit as he gained because fights like Armstrong and Giardello would wash.

Also, on Tiozzo, head to head he was better than Miller. His wins at Light Heavyweight are irrelevant here because Light Heavyweight wins can be clearly defined. It depends on what you want to weigh, but here it favored Miller based on volume of opposition.

[street bully]

Dwight Muhammad Qawi, 15? Come on.

[crold1]

Dwight Muhammad Qawi, 15? Come on.

Six losses hurt in this comparative analysis hurt him.

[BetterCallSaul]

Haye won 3 World titles at cruiserweight, and The Ring title, all before his 22nd fight. A pretty good acheivement if you ask me.

[crold1]

Haye won 3 World titles at cruiserweight, and The Ring title, all before his 22nd fight. A pretty good acheivement if you ask me.

Haye has it all at Cruiser. he's in the top ten in terms of other titlists faced, is one of only three to unify three belts, and he got dudes out of there. He could go back some day, theoretically, and lose some points but as is an excellent Cruiser.

[giacomino]

Domiguez got credit for his win over Giovanni; I said five losses. Not that he didn't beat any of them. He fought Giovanni, Wamba, Gomez, Nelson and, yes, Maccarinelli is a factor but even if I remove him AND Nelson he doesn't move up into the top twenty here. Yes, he had five defenses, but they only count for a \1/4 point apiece because the title was split four ways.

In a list like this Robinson would lose as much credit as he gained because fights like Armstrong and Giardello would wash.

Also, on Tiozzo, head to head he was better than Miller. His wins at Light Heavyweight are irrelevant here because Light Heavyweight wins can be clearly defined. It depends on what you want to weigh, but here it favored Miller based on volume of opposition.

Re: Dominguez. Actually, you said, "He fought five current/former/future titlists and picked up five losses against them." He fought six, lost five.
My point was never about just Dominguez. I guess I am quibbling with the headline saying "The 20 greatest cruiserweights of all time." It's more like "20 cruiserweights who did the best when fighting other past, present or future champions, regardless of when they fought." But I guess that's too long for a headline.

[crold1]

Re: Dominguez. Actually, you said, "He fought five current/former/future titlists and picked up five losses against them." He fought six, lost five.
My point was never about just Dominguez. I guess I am quibbling with the headline saying "The 20 greatest cruiserweights of all time." It's more like "20 cruiserweights who did the best when fighting other past, present or future champions, regardless of when they fought." But I guess that's too long for a headline.

Yeah, mine's catchier.

And no, it was five. Here's how his score broke down:

Opp faced: 5 (Giovanni, Wamba, Gomez, Nelson, Macca)
Titles: .25 (WBC)
Defenses: 1.25 (or 5x.25...and that's giving credit for two of them being of the interim title)
Subtotal: 6.5
Points for KO against opp considered:0
KOBY: -2 (Macca)
UD: 0
Quality wins: .25 for DQ win over Giovanni (Wins points based on how many titles an individual held in concurrence with full points for lineal champs)
Quality Losses: -5 (All losses count for a point for everybody; five losses are Wamba, Gomez twice, Nelson and Macca)
Quality Draws: 0
Total: -.25

[giacomino]

My mistake. I was double-counting Gomez

[crold1]

My mistake. I was double-counting Gomez

Nothing against the guy...the Kobozev win was particularly excellent.

[Jim Jeffries]

Dwight Muhammad Qawi, 15? Come on.

Well when you count losses to primes Michael Spinks and Evander Holyfields the same as to 40 year old Carl Thompsons, it happens.