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How do you beat Mayweather Jr.? By strength and speed, says Roach

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  • #11
    Well, the only problem with that is that Pac won't have the strength or speed advantage. As Hatton found out, to his obvious dismay, Mayweather is a hell of a lot stronger than he looks and he is strongest on the inside. He would be a lot stronger than Pac would having fought at the higher weights for much longer as well.

    The speed thing, well, that's very debatable. I would still say that Mayweather has an obvious speed advantage. Pac may look faster because he throws actual flurries of punches but his punch speed is not as quick as Mayweather's.

    Also, on Roach saying that the shoulder roll won't work with Pac, I think he may have missed a very important point here. Against a southpaw, it can be very difficult to use the shoulder roll effectively., but that's on a southpaw like Whitaker who keeps his right shoulder forward and never squares up. The problem with Pac fighting Mayweather if he is on the ropes will be that he will square up and any straight left that comes in can be countered by his own right either after he ducks down or off a left hook or roll.

    Also, Pac would struggle to land anything like he did against Oscar. Oscar was using his classic high guard and trying to jab straight as he would against a righty. You need to keep the jab pushing down against a southpaw like Pac. Pac's jab is a range finder and more of a pawing jab which can easily be countered by pushing it down with your own jab and then shooting over the top with the counter jab. Because Oscar himself was square and his guard high it made Pac's left a very strong weapon, whereas if his right jab was being pushed down and Mayweather was not squaring up, which he wouldn't, then it means he could land his own jab over the top and set up his own straight right with the perfect angle and distraction right behind the jab.

    On the jab again, one weapon that could also be a big advantage for Mayweather is the jab to the body. He has a very good one and sometimes forgets to use it, but I think it would be very effective against Pac. Of course Mayweather's body work in general is very good and we saw that Manny can be hurt to the body and if Mayweather made a point of going early to the body mixing up lead rights, jab's and the left, it could really take the steam out of Pac.

    What I see making this closer than it normally would be is that Mayweather struggles innately with southpaws and also with the ring rust from inactivity it could make it quite close. Well, that is all we can hope for anyway. I would still prefer to see Pac in with Hatton first though.
    Last edited by BennyST; 12-16-2008, 02:30 AM.

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    • #12
      Originally posted by Silencers View Post
      Pacquiao would have to have plans A, B, C and D against Mayweather, he can't just go in there with 1 gameplan and expect to win because Mayweather will figure him out, he'll need a bit of everything against Mayweather.

      And Mayweather has fought more pressure fighters than Castillo and has dealt with them well, he even dealt with Castillo well in their second fight when he was healthy.
      I completely agree, I would like to add that you have to take Mayweather out of his comfort zone and make him do stuff that he does not want to do against a certain opponent. It is hard because Mayweather has a lot of options in the ring, but if you can limit his options you can greatly improve your chances of winning.

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      • #13
        Originally posted by The Gambler1981 View Post
        I completely agree, I would like to add that you have to take Mayweather out of his comfort zone and make him do stuff that he does not want to do against a certain opponent. It is hard because Mayweather has a lot of options in the ring, but if you can limit his options you can greatly improve your chances of winning.
        I agree, but as you said, it's hard to take Mayweather out of his comfort zone because of his versatility, and most of his opponents are get preoccupied with trying to stay in their comfort zone against him, maybe only 2 guys have really been able to frustrate Mayweather and they were Castillo in their first fight and Augustus. He was injured against Castillo though.

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        • #14
          Roach's confidence and analysis on how to beat Mayweather is really hyping me up for this fight! Want to see if his assumptions on how beat Mayweather come true!
          hope it can happen!
          either that or mayweather cotto or
          mayweather margarito
          but floyd will beat cotto, but lose to Tony

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          • #15
            Originally posted by BennyST View Post
            Well, the only problem with that is that Pac won't have the strength or speed advantage. As Hatton found out, to his obvious dismay, Mayweather is a hell of a lot stronger than he looks and he is strongest on the inside. He would be a lot stronger than Pac would having fought at the higher weights for much longer as well.

            The speed thing, well, that's very debatable. I would still say that Mayweather has an obvious speed advantage. Pac may look faster because he throws actual flurries of punches but his punch speed is not as quick as Mayweather's.

            Also, on Roach saying that the shoulder roll won't work with Pac, I think he may have missed a very important point here. Against a southpaw, it can be very difficult to use the shoulder roll effectively., but that's on a southpaw like Whitaker who keeps his right shoulder forward and never squares up. The problem with Pac fighting Mayweather if he is on the ropes will be that he will square up and any straight left that comes in can be countered by his own right either after he ducks down or off a left hook or roll.

            Also, Pac would struggle to land anything like he did against Oscar. Oscar was using his classic high guard and trying to jab straight as he would against a righty. You need to keep the jab pushing down against a southpaw like Pac. Pac's jab is a range finder and more of a pawing jab which can easily be countered by pushing it down with your own jab and then shooting over the top with the counter jab. Because Oscar himself was square and his guard high it made Pac's left a very strong weapon, whereas if his right jab was being pushed down and Mayweather was not squaring up, which he wouldn't, then it means he could land his own jab over the top and set up his own straight right with the perfect angle and distraction right behind the jab.

            On the jab again, one weapon that could also be a big advantage for Mayweather is the jab to the body. He has a very good one and sometimes forgets to use it, but I think it would be very effective against Pac. Of course Mayweather's body work in general is very good and we saw that Manny can be hurt to the body and if Mayweather made a point of going early to the body mixing up lead rights, jab's and the left, it could really take the steam out of Pac.

            What I see making this closer than it normally would be is that Mayweather struggles innately with southpaws and also with the ring rust from inactivity it could make it quite close. Well, that is all we can hope for anyway. I would still prefer to see Pac in with Hatton first though.
            This is one of the best analysis of the fight i have ever read, far better than my own. I am at work and i seriously took the time to bust out my laptop, and really read into what was being said. Looking at the pac-diaz fight, you are right, he does square up to unload alot of his combinations, and he has been in with a few opponents lately who fall into his game of exchanging, granted honestly, a guy like diaz had no chance going into the fight, which is why i honestly didint care to order it. Looking at the de la hoya fight, you are right about de la hoyas strategy, another thing i wanted to point out to you in that fight is that for whatever reason, de la hoya does not fight tall. He crouches to a smaller fighters posture, i dont know why the hell he does this, but he does. Regardless, it made him an easier target for not just pacman, but forbes as well.

            I seriously think that the de la hoya fight made pacman look alot faster than he really is, however, even if pacman wins the speed argument against mayweather, mayweathers jab to the body is an outstanding weapon, but one punch you didint mention was his famed right hand lead, which could offset ALOT of what pacman may want to do. In all honesty, i dont count pacman out. Buts its going to take more than aggression, mayweather just seems to thrive when guys come right at him. I still, to this day, feel zab judah was the one guy who could have really beat mayweather, what you are talking about with the southpaw trouble is exactly what happened against zab, until mayweather adjusted midfight. Alot of people say Zab gased, but mayweather seriously adjusted and started taking it to him. That fight was awesome, even if zab is an underachiever.

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            • #16
              manny by check right hook!

              floyd-pac at 135 for the wbc belt in 2009.

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              • #17
                Originally posted by Left Hook Tua View Post
                manny by check right hook!

                floyd-pac at 135 for the wbc belt in 2009.
                I don't think Mayweather could make 135 anymore.

                probably 140 at most.

                I would love the fight to happen though no matter if its at 140 or 147.

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                • #18
                  Originally posted by Precision View Post
                  I don't think Mayweather could make 135 anymore.

                  probably 140 at most.

                  I would love the fight to happen though no matter if its at 140 or 147.
                  exactly.

                  i don't want ling ling to lose to floyd......

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                  • #19
                    Originally posted by El Jesus View Post
                    This is one of the best analysis of the fight i have ever read, far better than my own. I am at work and i seriously took the time to bust out my laptop, and really read into what was being said. Looking at the pac-diaz fight, you are right, he does square up to unload alot of his combinations, and he has been in with a few opponents lately who fall into his game of exchanging, granted honestly, a guy like diaz had no chance going into the fight, which is why i honestly didint care to order it. Looking at the de la hoya fight, you are right about de la hoyas strategy, another thing i wanted to point out to you in that fight is that for whatever reason, de la hoya does not fight tall. He crouches to a smaller fighters posture, i dont know why the hell he does this, but he does. Regardless, it made him an easier target for not just pacman, but forbes as well.

                    I seriously think that the de la hoya fight made pacman look alot faster than he really is, however, even if pacman wins the speed argument against mayweather, mayweathers jab to the body is an outstanding weapon, but one punch you didint mention was his famed right hand lead, which could offset ALOT of what pacman may want to do. In all honesty, i dont count pacman out. Buts its going to take more than aggression, mayweather just seems to thrive when guys come right at him. I still, to this day, feel zab judah was the one guy who could have really beat mayweather, what you are talking about with the southpaw trouble is exactly what happened against zab, until mayweather adjusted midfight. Alot of people say Zab gased, but mayweather seriously adjusted and started taking it to him. That fight was awesome, even if zab is an underachiever.
                    Hey EJ, thank you very much, glad you dug it. That's flattering coming from you.

                    The Oscar fight has made people overestimate what Pac is capable of, and while he is a brilliant fighter and cannot be overlooked for any fight against any fighter, I think many are starting to make him out to be a new defensive genius, hard to hit with amazing lateral movement comparable to Hopkins or Whitaker. Blazingly fast hands like Jones Jr in his prime and of course the boxing skill to beat Mayweather without getting hit by him

                    Well, it may not have gone that far, but it's getting there!

                    He is very fast, and he has improved his skill, he has shown that against someone that has no movement whatsoever he is fast and can move laterally, or that he can throw lightning fast combinations against someone that is not throwing back. His last two fights were masterpieces against those type of fighters.

                    He had the same skills against his last fight against Marquez and of course that didn't go down much like either of these fights. He may have gotten even better at his footwork, but what happens when he comes in against someone that takes one step to the side when he skips forward quickly pumping out the jab? His main lead in is still the same as it's ever been. Against someone that is a counter puncher it is very difficult to do those same things he has shown in his last two fights. Against that stationary target his side to side movement is quick and agile, but against someone that fights off the back foot, to use that movement is much, much harder and I can nearly guarantee that we won't see that if they did fight.

                    You can't count Pac out simply because he's been very active, has carried his speed and power up and is a southpaw whereas Mayweather has now been inactive for quite a long time. Nonetheless, everyone is looking at the future fight between these two and seeing the Pac that was in against Oscar, someone who had no legs, no defense, no movement and was himselkf expecting to go in and walk Pac down and blow him out. It will so vastly different that people will probably end up saying weird things like "Pac wasn't in there tonight. It wasn't the same guy that fought Oscar", but when you suddenly rush in against someone that steps to the side, brings up the shoulder and shoots a shot straight through your guard as you're getting ready to throw a combo, it also suddenly dawns on you that rushing in and out won't work.

                    When you're an aggressive fighter with some movement against an aggressive fighter with none, you're going to look spectacular. When you're in with a defensive counter puncher, you are going to suddenly look like the guy with no movement.

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                    • #20
                      I have an entire thread on the topic of Manny beating Floyd... apparently everyone except Floyd nuthuggers think its a good read...

                      Take a look. I have lots of good points as to why Manny would win.

                      http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...55#post4465755

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