Who deserves more credit

[Benny Leonard]

Understand. But, I was talking about a period way back before the Hatton-Tszyu fight, when Tszyu was open to a fight with Floyd, but Floyd skipped by it.

But, you're right...Tszyu in his prime was a fantastic champion. It was absolutely criminal what happened to him in Britain against Hatton. I've never seen a ref placed so squarely in the pocket of a fighter. Hatton could have pulled out a club and used it in that fight.

When was this; was Floyd at 140?

Corley was his first 140 fight and that was 2004.

Hatton fight was 2005.

I heard talks about a fight between Tszyu and Mayweather match to be made after the Hatton fight thinking Tszyu was going to blow Ricky out. They had to make a deal between the two companies: HBO and Showtime. Hatton had the advantage because he was on Showtime like Tszyu.

I'm not sure how many considered Tszyu in his prime in 2004. Believe it or not, they were talking about Tszyu's decline for years. They were already saying he was past his prime, but still good, when he was going to fight Judah...and I think, they were even saying it after his performance with Urkal.

I think Tszy's vast amatuer career, hard training, and then time off and injuries, made him decline faster than he should have. He could have been better; he should have been better.

[Wiley Hyena]

I agree, that would be hypocritical. However I picked Joe to win the fight by a semi-wide UD, so I guess that does not apply to me.

Who is making excuses about the Hopkins win? I had Joe wining the fight and said it was a great win - perhaps second only to his win over a prime young champion in Mikkel Kessler. The fact is, Hopkins is not as good as he was when say he beat Tito - it is just a fact. It doesn't mean it isn't a great win, it is.

As far as your Dawson argument is concerned, you may be right. There will always be idiots out there looking to discredit fighters for any reason they can find. I'm sure if Calzaghe beat him we would hear the "overhyped, overrated, unproven" rubbish we usually do, but it certainly would not come from me. Dawson has proven himself as the number 1 fighter at 175 outside of Calzaghe over his last 4 or 5 fights in my view and has beaten 3 past champs and a top contender in Eric Harding. If Joe fought and beat him he would get a great deal of credit from me and most other reasonable boxing fans.

I wasn't referring specifically to you, just your statement about Hopkins in general. I think most Hopkins watchers believe that he's slipped A LITTLE offensively, but on any given day... In any event, Hopkins is still a most formidible opponent and IMO Calzaghe won convincingly on points. Taylor's wins against Hopkins were not nearly as convincing. In fact, it seemed like all Taylor needed to do was stay close because the powers in charge had decided it was time to retire Hopkins out for fresh blood. That's just the way I saw it anyway.

[Dan...]

Tzsyu was definatley past prime when he fought Hatton. I don't think Ricky would have been able to hang with a prime Kostya.

[Flawless 2]

Hatton never was, and never will be in the same league with Prime Kostya Tszyu, Antonio Margarito, or Miguel Cotto. I'd be willing to give Floyd an early pass on skipping out on Tszyu when Floyd was Jr.WW because Tszyu was the monster of the division. But, not fighting either Marg or Cotto (especially Cotto) cinched it for me.

Why did Cotto say no to Mayweather at 140, but Mayweather is ducking at 147

[Benny Leonard]

Tzsyu was definatley past prime when he fought Hatton. I don't think Ricky would have been able to hang with a prime Kostya.

Second pro fight of Tszyu:



Look at Kostya move his legs as well as his torso and head movement...and then look at how fast his hand speed is and the timing and power that comes with it. He was a different fighter when he first got off the boat and arrived in Australia.

Shane Mosley, Oscar, Chris Byrd, Tyson, The Mayweathers, etc. all saw Kostya as an amatuer and thought he was amazing. I think Byrd said Kostya was the best amatuer fighter he had ever seen...and Byrd goes everywhere to see fights/fighters...as well as being a slick fighter himself.

[Flawless 2]

Kostya wasn't that good of a fighter. He lost to Phillips in his prime, pretty weak and lost to Hatton.

[Wiley Hyena]

When was this; was Floyd at 140?

Corley was his first 140 fight and that was 2004.

Hatton fight was 2005.

I heard talks about a fight between Tszyu and Mayweather match to be made after the Hatton fight thinking Tszyu was going to blow Ricky out. They had to make a deal between the two companies: HBO and Showtime. Hatton had the advantage because he was on Showtime like Tszyu.

I'm not sure how many considered Tszyu in his prime in 2004. Believe it or not, they were talking about Tszyu's decline for years. They were already saying he was past his prime, but still good, when he was going to fight Judah...and I think, they were even saying it after his performance with Urkal.

I think Tszy's vast amatuer career, hard training, and then time off and injuries, made him decline faster than he should have. He could have been better; he should have been better.

It was back before Floyd signed to fight Gatti...if I remember correctly. There was a two month period where both Tszyu and Floyd were unsigned and Tszyu's camp made an offer. Floyd failed to respond and signed for Gatti (I'm almost sure it was Gatti if my memory serves) Anyway, I posted the press articles on this site in a long symposium last year during my ever endless battles with Dios Dominicos on this subject. It's probably still back there somewhere if you want to read it.

[Dan...]

Second pro fight of Tszyu:



Look at Kostya move his legs as well as his torso and head movement...and then look at how fast his hand speed is and the timing and power that comes with it. He was a different fighter when he first got off the boat and arrived in Australia.

Shane Mosley, Oscar, Chris Byrd, Tyson, The Mayweathers, etc. all saw Kostya as an amatuer and thought he was amazing. I think Byrd said Kostya was the best amatuer fighter he had ever seen...and Byrd goes everywhere to see fights/fighters...as well as being a slick fighter himself.

Yeah, being from Australia I am well aware of how good a prime Tzsyu was. An extremely powerful hitter with very underrated skills. I read his biography and his amateur training sounded ridiculous.

[Wiley Hyena]

Kostya wasn't that good of a fighter. He lost to Phillips in his prime, pretty weak and lost to Hatton.

ROFL! My friend, Tzsyu's only prime loss to Phillips is no indication that you know what you're talking about. Tszyu was the first man in 20 or 30 years to unify JrWW. That's like saying Sugar Ray Robinson lost a few fights therefore he wasn't a very good fighter.
Tszyu was an emmense boxing presence and he owned, simply owned JrWW during his prime. He was a beast and Floyd didn't want to have anything to do with Kostya Tszyu.

[Benny Leonard]

Kostya wasn't that good of a fighter. He lost to Phillips in his prime, pretty weak and lost to Hatton.

This is why I blame Australia

If you notice earlier in his career, Kostya moved his head and liked defense a bit. When he went up against Phillips, who actually finally got his act together, Tszyu wasn't moving his head and tried to battle it out; he kept taking flush shot after flush shot and thought he would be able to just take out Phillips; it didn't work. I've always thought Tszyu's problem was his Ego and over-looking certain fighters because his confidence grew too high. He was always at his best when he had to prove himself; that's when he prepared the best Mentally and Physically.

I'm not sure what was going on outside the ring at the time with Phillips, but I heard it wasn't good and effected him...but, if true, he should have taken care of the outside distractions first.

He still should have rematched him at some point.