The Klitschko’s Rule Heavyweight, What’s The Bad News?

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  • edgarg
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    #21
    Originally posted by crold1
    No, I don't and your insistence on this is a waste of time. His first BC reign was not lineal for sure but...

    Lewis beat Briggs, who beat Foreman (on the cards anyways), who beat Moorer, who beat Holy, who beat Bowe, who beat Holy, who beat Douglas, who beat Tyson...on and on in a straight line to Patterson. That's the definition of a lineal champion. here's a link to an online encyclopedia I use for references though it's really not needed here: http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/achamp.htm

    OR

    He unified the BC, BA and BF belts at a time when the BO belt was NOT considered a serious Heavyweight title AT ALL. Even Wlad, with the BO belt, talked about Lewis as THE real champ. Regardless of sanc body nonsense (and the BA didn't want to strip Lewis for Ruiz; they agreed to let him keep the belt if he agreed to face Ruiz after Grant, who was more deserving at the time anyways, and Lewis did so only to lose the title in court), he then defended against Grant and Tua in 2000 (Tua, who knocked Ruiz out in about a second and who was the most deserving contender of them all at the time) and on and on...

    He was THE lineal champion.

    I can admit I may have errored in pluralizing Vit's injury last week...surely you can let this argument go in the face of actual facts.
    Yes, I could let this difference go--if it were factual. But it isn't, and no finagling can make it so. The Universal Champ even in Lennox Lewis's time HAD to be the guy who held ALL the belts, that is the 4 major ones. The WBO that you single out, was, for a good part of that time, held by both Klitschko brothers, so it can't be said that the WBO in this period was of little consequence. The fighter really makes the belt, not the reverse. There was a short interregnum when Chris Byrd got it from VK due to that rotator cuff problem...when VK had won every round but the last one.

    It was a "given" that when he met WK that he's lose BIG, and, so he did, although he was able to handle just about everybody else.. The Klitschkos were immense threats to Lewis, and he dodged them. Much like he dodged VK over that return bout.

    Differences are the "****e of life" on these sites, Let's agree to differ?? Eh??

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    • edgarg
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      #22
      Addendum to letter to CROLD

      When Moorer beat Holyfield and then lost it to Foreman, was ONLY FOR THE WBA and IBF Titles. That is....2 Titles only. The WBC came into the picture only with Lennox Lewis who held it. And He held the 3 [THREE] Titles for only a very short period, a matter of a few months, and thereafter ONLY the WBC Title. I know they threw in the "IBO" Title" just to take up room on the marquee, but this was, and is, really a "nothing" title.

      When Foreman KO'd Moorer in that lucky 10th rd, it was only for the IBFand WBA titles, and when he lost to Briggs I don't know what it was for, it couldn't have been for more than the IBF and WBA and may have been for less. When Briggs lost to Lewis just 3-4 months later it was for the WBC title, which maybe Lewis must have already held??

      It may be fashionable to trace the lineal track via Moorer, Foreman and Briggs etc, but the FACTS are, that the ONE Lineal Title had broken up years before already. You know that. It's only a semantic argument that claims that Shannon Briggs was the Lineal Champ. My goodness..... Briggs.....Let me hold my nose. (as the old ad used to say in Dublin.."My goodness, My Guinness)

      So what's the problem. I don't suppose you are a Lewis "fan" being a seasoned writer. In fact i've never come across a Lewis fan.

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      • crold1
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        #23
        No, much more a Holyfield fan.

        Lineage is not contingent on alphabelts BS and you're the first person I've ever come across who would make the argument that Vitali beating HERBIE HIDE after never having faced a legit top ten contender, was somehow in the mix for the undisputed title or that the WBO was considered universally as part of the undisputed mix back in 1999, especially at Heavyweight. It wasn't though, as you note, we can beg to differ.

        And he hardly dodged the Klits. Wlad was being built into a big PPV and it wasn't Lewis' fault he got deconstructed by Sanders...and he FOUGHT Vitali even though Vitali's resume at that point was pretty soft. It's much better now, and Vitali has proven to be quite good, but Timo Hoffman and Larry Donald (probably hius best foes to then) getting him a mandatory is an argument aginst the WBC more than for it.

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        • Jim Jeffries
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          #24
          Originally posted by crold1
          Povetkin beats Wlad and I'll be surprised...he needs at least 4-5 more fights first IMO
          Povetkin has the workrate to make it an interesting fight, but as yet, he gets hit far too much, and doesn't have the power to really trouble Wlad. I think he'll have trouble getting past Wlad's jab, which will be in full force given that he's not fighting a southpaw (like the last two fights.) I look for Wlad to stop him around rd 8 or 9 or win about 116-112, something like that.

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          • crold1
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            #25
            Agreed and it's a shame; I think Povetkin with seasoning could be a serious factor. I can't shake that he's being rushed.

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            • edgarg
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              #26
              Originally posted by Pullcounter
              i dunno. vitaly was the heir to lewis before wlad was. the only way to settle it is for the bros to fight, but that's never gonna happen. there will never be an undisputed champion at HW until one of these guys beats the other or loses and the other bro fights the winner.
              Is there any record anywhere of 2 close brothers fighting each other for a title??

              I don't think the Dundees did, that is, if they were really brothers?? I think thry were. And the Zivics didn't. Nor the Fullmers.

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              • crold1
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                #27
                Originally posted by edgarg
                Is there any record anywhere of 2 close brothers fighting each other for a title??

                I don't think the Dundees did, that is, if they were really brothers?? I think thry were. And the Zivics didn't. Nor the Fullmers.
                I've read of some bro-bro clashes but usually way back when and early, to pad records. It wouldn't help Boxing for the fight to happen. Sure, it would sell, but if someone got seriously hurt it would make the fallout from Griffith-Paret seem miniscule. If the two brothers end up with two belts apiece, so be it. The alternative is cynical circus stuff.

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                • Scott9945
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                  #28
                  Originally posted by crold1
                  Agreed and it's a shame; I think Povetkin with seasoning could be a serious factor. I can't shake that he's being rushed.

                  I couldn't agree more Cliff. In a couple of years a more experienced Povetkin would have a much, much better chance against an aging Klitschko. Now it just seems like a legitimately talented prospect is being thrown to the wolves.

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                  • edgarg
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                    #29
                    Originally posted by crold1
                    No, much more a Holyfield fan.

                    Lineage is not contingent on alphabelts BS and you're the first person I've ever come across who would make the argument that Vitali beating HERBIE HIDE after never having faced a legit top ten contender, was somehow in the mix for the undisputed title or that the WBO was considered universally as part of the undisputed mix back in 1999, especially at Heavyweight. It wasn't though, as you note, we can beg to differ.

                    And he hardly dodged the Klits. Wlad was being built into a big PPV and it wasn't Lewis' fault he got deconstructed by Sanders...and he FOUGHT Vitali even though Vitali's resume at that point was pretty soft. It's much better now, and Vitali has proven to be quite good, but Timo Hoffman and Larry Donald (probably hius best foes to then) getting him a mandatory is an argument aginst the WBC more than for it.
                    When Klitschko KO'd Hide in rd 2 this was Hide's 32nd fight of which he's lost only one, a 6 rd KO to Rid**** Bowe when Bowe was "going good". Klitschko, on the other hand had had 24 fights all won by KO, only 2 of which had gone past the 3rd rd. And, with his devastating tigerish style, and massive size, and seemingly impervious jaw, was a really menacing figure,looming over EVERY fighter of top calibre in the ring.

                    Today we have a guy fighting for the title as the #1` contender with only 14 fights. So whats the problem with Klitschko being worthy of a title shot with HIS record?? We have retreads who've had 3-4 title shots when they really DIDN'T deserve them. Lewis kept VK dangling around for well over a year as #1 contender, and wouldn't have ever fought him, regardless of it being a big money fight, if Kirk Johnson hadn't defected only a few days before the fight, giving Lewis what he thought would be a big edge. Not to mention that he held up the promoters for, I've heard, several millions extra, and he was already counting the big money already contracted for in the Johnson fight.

                    WK's record around that time was almost as good, with only the Purrity loss, (easily and convincingly explainable) and only one fighter going the distance. One DQ as well I believe. So, what's not to like here, not to mention his Olympic Gold medal, his great amateur background, and his physical attributes, not to mention his skills.

                    And they counted more victims before winning the WBO. around 2000 or so. Don't forget it's the fighter who makes the belt, not the other way. As Joe Cazaghe has amply shown.

                    Hector Camacho was a WBO CHamp, beating Vinny Pazienza another Champ. Say what you like about it (merely an expression) Camacho is one of the most skilled boxers in the past 50 years....in my opinion only of course.

                    So...after our discussions, [and a few digressions, for which I apologise] which I sincerely enjoyed, we can let it rest. See you on another thread I'm sure, sometime.

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                    • Enayze
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                      #30
                      Originally posted by gridiron
                      Povetkin will make the double-Klitschko reign short-lived.
                      So I see we have a comedian on this forum

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