Who’s better p4p. Pavlik or Kessler? And why does Pavlik get a freebee?

[Easy-E]

After last weekends destuction of welshman Gary Lockett at the hands of Kelly Pavlik, Pavlik is praised from all around. Lockett is only about 50 in the computerized rankings of the IBO and 32 at Boxrec, but Pavlik, who’s no.1, gets a freebee since he’s fought so many big names lately so a soft touch is excuseable. Love keeps streaming towards Pavlik.

I’d like to make a comparison with Mikkel Kessler.

Later this month he is to fight Dimitri Sartison for the WBA SMW title. Kessler is dissed all around for fighting such an unknown quantity. Why? Sartison is also about no. 50 in the IBO rankings but 14 in Boxrec, and Kessler has fought for his life in his last 6 fights.

Pavlik is ranked around no. 7 in various p4p ratings while Kessler is not in the top 10.

Pavlik’s last 6 opponents:

Lockett KO3
Taylor W12 (Former MW champ)
Taylor KO7 (MW champ)
Miranda KO7 (eliminator)
Zertuche (NABF title)
Pierre (rather obscure)

Kessler’s last 6 opponents:

Calzaghe L12 (all-time great)
Andrade W12 (mandatory)
Beyer KO3 (WBC champ)
Lucas KO10 (former WBC champ)
Mundine W12 (current WBA champ, fought in Oz)
Siaca KO8 (WBA champ; Kessler was a late sub)

My questions are:

1) Why are Pavlik the higher ranked p4p?
2) Why does Pavlik get a freebee and Kessler not?

The undefeated middleweight champion Pavlik is higher rated than Kessler, coming off what to me was an uninspired loss.

[Mr. Philadel]

Personally I think Pavlik's wins over Taylor are bigger accomplishments then anything Kessler has done.

Exactly bro!

[Stickman]

[quote=poeticlsykuac;3632484]

One thing I forgot to add...you stated you felt Pavlik was more impressive....mostly, I agree, but think about this: Kelly is 6'2" tall, and has what....75" reach? That kid is a MONSTROUS middleweight, and that does tend to make for impressive performances. Size matters, and Pavlik has it. Kessler is closer to his size than Taylor, and Lockett at least 4 or 5 inches shorter than Kelly Pavlik. Mark my words, within a year or 3, Kelly Pavlik will be fighting exclusively at SM, and within 5, he'll probably have several showings at LH. The kid has the frame to support a move to cruiser towards the end of his career, if he wanted to.[/QUOTE

Both are good responses. I brought up Taylor because I think he had better tools to avoid Pavlik's power with footwork and solid jab(he was to scared of Pavlik's by the end of the fight lol) etc. Pavlik will be a SM in the next 2 I'd say. He likes to fight often, I could see him cleaning this division out in 2 years or less and moving up, if he doesn't move up any ways. Kessler does fight tall in comparison to Taylor I do agree with that(lazier almost). Kessler and Taylor are the same height. I think fighting lower is a good concept against Pavlik, he has a massive body and I'd beat up on that thing all day long if I was facing his power. Kessler I would say is slower(or is it less flashy?), Taylor is a extremely gifted athlete. Kessler to me just seems to be a less fluid fighter, to me that could be bad because Pavlik is so busy you have to open up when you get a chance, but you are right in that Kessler is a busier fighter then Taylor. Kessler does slow up though when some one is consistently on attack, Pavlik never stops coming foward(at least I haven't seen it), even when he was hurt by Taylor he was walking foward.

But to me that jab is so difficult, the only person I've seen with that type of jab in the last 10 years in the lower divisions is Ike "bazooka" Quartey(Sturm has a solid one but nothing else), a power puncher that hurt you with his jab lol. The way I've observed boxing, is if you have a good jab(especially a powerful one that makes fighters flinch) with power the only thing that can consistently beat it is a good double jab. I mean Pavlik is a sound fighter nothing special from a boxing stand point, has a narley jab, good work rate, a solid heart, a good chin, solid footwork, and ridiculous power. He just doesn't shimmer in any category dude just hits hard.

Kessler's tends to fight like most other europeans, and I agree can give the robot-like appearance (remember how everyone talked about Klitchko?) and appear less fluid, but it's effectiveness isn't lessened by the fact.

About Pavlik's jab.....if (and it's a big if).....if Pavlik could keep from getting countered with a right hand every other time he threw it, you'd probably end up being right, and Pavlik would probably win a match between them. But something that keeps popping into my head is Kessler's speed. Against Andrade, he looked lightning-quick, but I chalked that up to Andrade's lack of speed and ability, but I've watched the Calzaghe/Kessler fight several times, and while he isn't quite as quick as Calzaghe, he's close. And Calzaghe is very, very quick. He landed very hard, straight right hands on Joe several times, punches that made me cringe, and I think Pavlik will be eating those straight right hands from the starting bell if he isn't damned careful.

Whether they'll hurt him or not, I can't say, but I feel like Kessler has at least as much power as Taylor.....

Pavlik's jab, if he doubles and triples it up and follows it with his own right, it might just be the answer to that counter right that you believe it to be. Hard to counter a guy while his jab is still in your face. And while body work is always like money in the bank, Pavlik fights lower than Kessler does and bodywork might be expensive for Kessler during the first couple of rounds...he'll probably be countered every time he dips downstairs. I just might, maybe, if I were Kessler, try Pavlik on for size upstairs the first 2 or maybe 3 rounds, and see if I couldn't land some big power combinations (starting with a counter right hand after a Pavlik jab, follow it with an uppercut if there is a hole, and finishing with a left hook downstairs, then upstairs) and see if I could manage a TKO. Pavlik has an OK chin and assloads of heart, but if he can get him out on his feet long enough for the ref to call it, heart doesn't come into play. That's where Pavlik's great conditioning could actually hurt him. If you're in great shape, you don't go down as easy, but his guard could drop for a few seconds, just long enough for him to appear defenseless in front of the ref with Kessler throwing combinations, and for him to call it.

And if I were Pavlik, I'd march Kessler down and work the body until my arms fell off, and then move upstairs maybe about the 4th or 5th round....we all saw Kessler hurt by a body shot from Calzaghe. I don't know if Kelly hits harder than Calzaghe or not (everybody says Joe is feather fisted, but if that were the case how does he keep big punchers respecting him? Hopkins didn't try to move in for a kill, neither did Lacy, or Kessler), but I certainly think that if Calzaghe can hurt him downstairs, Pavlik should be able to do the same. And if he can hurt him downstairs during the first half of the fight, his head will be a wide open target during the middle rounds, and Pavlik could end up with a KO from a head shot by the 8th, or he could move back downstairs again and maybe get a KO or TKO from a body shot late.

I guess it's just one of those "Wait and see" things. Nobody can guess, really, what's going to happen if these two fight, but like I said on another thread, this fight is the only thing I have on my wish list this year. I really, really want to see a match between Kessler and Pavlik, hopefully sometime in December, or maybe next spring.

[Danny Gunz]

You guys were talking about pavliks jab and how kessler would counter it.... there isnt much to counter on a jab and alot of boxers arent really concerned with it getting counteres. Because its not like they are throwing their body into a jab or anything a jab is there to disrupt their fighting style and to open up oppurtunites for you. Whether or not kessler can counter a jab really does not affect the outcome of the fight.

[Jan(DK)]

Pavlik is from US - Kessler is from Denmark, thats it!. Only when Kessler beats some US-fighters he will be recognized - in US=p4p.

[poeticlsykuac]

You guys were talking about pavliks jab and how kessler would counter it.... there isnt much to counter on a jab and alot of boxers arent really concerned with it getting counteres. Because its not like they are throwing their body into a jab or anything a jab is there to disrupt their fighting style and to open up oppurtunites for you. Whether or not kessler can counter a jab really does not affect the outcome of the fight.

I disagree with you. I think the jab can be countered effectively. But I don't think that a jab like Kelly's is easy to counter, because you have to get out of the way with it, it literally can hurt you. Mayweather is someone I have seen counter jabs, I've seen Hopkins counter it, Mosley, etc.(I have yet to see DLH counter one effectively though Sturm and Quartey did well against him). Elite fighters know how to step out of the way and counter a solid jab. But Pavlik to me doesn't just throw single punches, he usually has another jab, hook, or right, when he gets you on the ropes he uses the uppercut handily. Kessler on the other hand I have seen go into defensive shell(no punches in bunches), Kelly just seems starts off where he left off.

Jabs can have body thrown into it, Sturm has a *******(shoulder) style jab, his body is thrown into it. It just depends on the fighter, some use it for measuring, some for disrupting as you said, I've seen some steer their opponent with it, and some are just used literally to set up(a bit of authority), depending on your use of it your jab can be a pitter patter, a hit, or a touch. IMO no fighter should be without a solid jab.

[BattlingNelson]

Bump!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[hugh grant]

It must have something to do with Pavlik being American. I mean Kessler pushed JC quite hard. So why he isnt rated higher must be because he isnt American. Maybe Kessler doesnt deserve to be p4p rated top 10? Maybe Pavlik doesnt deserve it as well. But the fact that he is American does help Pavliks cause.

But thats all good for JC. If JC can beat Pavlik, there can be no excuses about JCs legacy.

[abadger]

Just for fun I'll repeat myself.

Kessler is better than Pavlik P4P by quite a margin. He is much faster and is a much better technical boxer than Pavlik. In many ways he shows Pavlik how an orthodox boxing style should be executed.

[BattlingNelson]

Just for fun I'll repeat myself.

Kessler is better than Pavlik P4P by quite a margin. He is much faster and is a much better technical boxer than Pavlik. In many ways he shows Pavlik how an orthodox boxing style should be executed.

Nice points skills-wise. I don't know if I'll agree with you that Kessler should be higher p4p as Pavlik did beat the highly regarded Taylor.

But I will say that IF Pavlik is ranked in the top 10 Kessler shouldn't be far behind. Some posters put Pavlik as high as no. 5 and I do think that it's because they dont know better. They've watched Pavlik regularly on HBO and have only watched Kessler against Calzaghe and/or Andrade. I sense a serious yank-bias.

And now they've seen Edison Miranda, who they regarded very high, being wallopped by the Abrahammer and suddenly Arthur Abraham enters the top 10!