Who’s better p4p. Pavlik or Kessler? And why does Pavlik get a freebee?

[eazy_mas]

If Kesslers wins were against contenders, what would you call Pavliks (exept Taylor)? Garbagemen?

contender that ****s

[BattlingNelson]

contender that ****s

Or gargagemen with a phoney smell

[Danny Gunz]

It doesnt take a genius to realize kessler is not good. The best thing he has done in his career is lost to joe calzaghe on a unanimous decision. not only is pavlik a much better fighter then kessler but kessler's name shouldnt even be said in p4p discussion.

[BatTheMan]

It doesnt take a genius to realize kessler is not good. The best thing he has done in his career is lost to joe calzaghe on a unanimous decision. not only is pavlik a much better fighter then kessler but kessler's name shouldnt even be said in p4p discussion.

Did you read the first post of this thread?

Try comparing the level of opposition and you'd see that outside of Jermain Taylor Kessler's opposition is hands down in a class of it's own.

[Danny Gunz]

Did you read the first post of this thread?

Try comparing the level of opposition and you'd see that outside of Jermain Taylor Kessler's opposition is hands down in a class of it's own.

Sorry I ranted in my last post without describing my opinion

I disagree, all of kesslers notable opponents were good fighters and kesller proved he can beat a good fighter, but he has never beaten a superstar or great fighter. Pavlik has proved he can beat a great fighter and superstar (i.e. taytor, miranda) and that is what makes him such a big name. So basically what I'm trying to say is that Kessler has never shown he is good enough to be described as better then pavlik or put on p4p list.

[Stickman]

After last weekends destuction of welshman Gary Lockett at the hands of Kelly Pavlik, Pavlik is praised from all around. Lockett is only about 50 in the computerized rankings of the IBO and 32 at Boxrec, but Pavlik, who’s no.1, gets a freebee since he’s fought so many big names lately so a soft touch is excuseable. Love keeps streaming towards Pavlik.

I’d like to make a comparison with Mikkel Kessler.

Later this month he is to fight Dimitri Sartison for the WBA SMW title. Kessler is dissed all around for fighting such an unknown quantity. Why? Sartison is also about no. 50 in the IBO rankings but 14 in Boxrec, and Kessler has fought for his life in his last 6 fights.

Pavlik is ranked around no. 7 in various p4p ratings while Kessler is not in the top 10.

Pavlik’s last 6 opponents:

Lockett KO3
Taylor W12 (Former MW champ)
Taylor KO7 (MW champ)
Miranda KO7 (eliminator)
Zertuche (NABF title)
Pierre (rather obscure)

Kessler’s last 6 opponents:

Calzaghe L12 (all-time great)
Andrade W12 (mandatory)
Beyer KO3 (WBC champ)
Lucas KO10 (former WBC champ)
Mundine W12 (current WBA champ, fought in Oz)
Siaca KO8 (WBA champ; Kessler was a late sub)

My questions are:

1) Why are Pavlik the higher ranked p4p?
2) Why does Pavlik get a freebee and Kessler not?

I don't pay much attention to the Lockett victory. The guy was half Pavlik's size and just there to be hit. You've all heard the old addage: "A good little guy can't beat a good big guy", and that's pretty much what happened. Lockett was just outsized.

The answer to your questions (really both have the same answer) is that Pavlik is an American fighter, has a better promoter and manager, fights exclusively in the US and his name gets around much more. Kessler, while in my opinion a much better actual boxer than Pavlik, hasn't had the exposure, hasn't fought in the right places (enough), and then there's the "Hometown boy" thing in Pavlik's corner. He's a tough, good natured kid from good ol' PA, US of A, and I can't think of many people who don't want to like the kid for that, if nothing else.

My own opinion is that Kessler should be in the top 3 in SM, and Pavlik should probably be about where he's at. This has nothing to do with skill itself (again, Kessler is by far the better boxer), but rather their performances inside the ring. Pavlik has lots of heart, is highly durable, and is probably capable of beating just anyone but Kessler. Kessler is probably a harder puncher, more highly skilled, has better handspeed, and isn't as hittable.

I wouldn't pick in a fight between these two, but if I were just forced to, I'd have to make a split call: Either early KO by Kessler (before 6), or SD win by Pavlik ...Pavlik has a slightly higher work rate, and is very tenacious, Kessler likes to counter, and likes his opponents to come to him. About the only thing I'd be willing to safely predict about this matchup, is that it would be one of the best fights you'd ever expect to see. And that there would, guaranteed, be an immediate rematch, with both fighters making millions the second go.

[poeticlsykuac]

I don't pay much attention to the Lockett victory. The guy was half Pavlik's size and just there to be hit. You've all heard the old addage: "A good little guy can't beat a good big guy", and that's pretty much what happened. Lockett was just outsized.

The answer to your questions (really both have the same answer) is that Pavlik is an American fighter, has a better promoter and manager, fights exclusively in the US and his name gets around much more. Kessler, while in my opinion a much better actual boxer than Pavlik, hasn't had the exposure, hasn't fought in the right places (enough), and then there's the "Hometown boy" thing in Pavlik's corner. He's a tough, good natured kid from good ol' PA, US of A, and I can't think of many people who don't want to like the kid for that, if nothing else.

My own opinion is that Kessler should be in the top 3 in SM, and Pavlik should probably be about where he's at. This has nothing to do with skill itself (again, Kessler is by far the better boxer), but rather their performances inside the ring. Pavlik has lots of heart, is highly durable, and is probably capable of beating just anyone but Kessler. Kessler is probably a harder puncher, more highly skilled, has better handspeed, and isn't as hittable.

I wouldn't pick in a fight between these two, but if I were just forced to, I'd have to make a split call: Either early KO by Kessler (before 6), or SD win by Pavlik ...Pavlik has a slightly higher work rate, and is very tenacious, Kessler likes to counter, and likes his opponents to come to him. About the only thing I'd be willing to safely predict about this matchup, is that it would be one of the best fights you'd ever expect to see. And that there would, guaranteed, be an immediate rematch, with both fighters making millions the second go.

Good post but IMO this match revolves around Pavlik's jab. IMO Pavlik's jab sets up his entire arsenal, Kessler's jab would not be as productive and he would need it to keep Pavlik off him. Pavlik just pounds that thing in your face and when you start flinching from it the over hand right drops you. Pavlik's jab also reaches halfway across the damn ring.

Kessler just is very mechanical. His biggest asset is that he is disciplined, Pavlik is very disciplined as well. Kessler maybe slightly faster, but do you honestly think that he is faster then Taylor? Pavlik's jab neutralizes speed. Kessler would not be able to get away from Pavlik not vice versa. Kessler doesn't have the better overall skills imo. I'd say Pavlik's footwork is better then Kessler's, he tracks and knocks opponents out and doesn't get hit very often in the mix(not as flush as many would think), and when he does he comes back and hurts them.

My point is this if Taylor couldn't get away from Pavlik's power do you really think that Kessler can? I'd say Taylor is way more skilled over all. Pavlik just hits hard. I'd probably say that Kessler really doesn't hit harder then Pavlik. Power between 160 and 168 wouldn't be as big as in lighter divisions(power punchers in 160 can easily go to 168 and maintain). Pavlik would be stronger at 168 then 160 because he would not be weight drained, he admitted it was hard to make weight.

I'd also say that Kessler would be facing the strongest fighter he has ever fought in Pavlik. Kessler may not be the stronger fighter, Pavlik systematically destructs fighters.

I will admit I have not seen many Kessler fights, but I would say Pavlik is more impressive when I watch him. I just can't see Kessler doing well against Pavlik, he would do exactly what Pavlik needs and that is come at him and try to overwhelm him. Pavlik is battle tested and dominant, patient and a narley finisher.

[Stickman]

I'm going to discuss your points individualy so I don't forget anything (also good post, by the way, glad I'm getting discussion rather than the usual "Blah, **** u, U no nutun bout fites" bull****).

Good post but IMO this match revolves around Pavlik's jab. IMO Pavlik's jab sets up his entire arsenal, Kessler's jab would not be as productive and he would need it to keep Pavlik off him. Pavlik just pounds that thing in your face and when you start flinching from it the over hand right drops you. Pavlik's jab also reaches halfway across the damn ring.

Pavlik has a very pretty jab, and he uses it well, but I see him getting countered with a right hand half the time he throws it against Kessler. Mikkel loves to counter, and is good at it. I do think you're right in that Kessler's jab isn't as textbook nice as Kelly's, and he probably doesn't throw it as much as he should, but I truly don't think this would be a jabbing war, I think these guys will end up standing toe to toe in the middle of the ring and slugging it out. Also, their reach is approximately the same, I think Kelly has about an inch on Kessler.

Kessler just is very mechanical. His biggest asset is that he is disciplined, Pavlik is very disciplined as well. Kessler maybe slightly faster, but do you honestly think that he is faster then Taylor? Pavlik's jab neutralizes speed. Kessler would not be able to get away from Pavlik not vice versa. Kessler doesn't have the better overall skills imo. I'd say Pavlik's footwork is better then Kessler's, he tracks and knocks opponents out and doesn't get hit very often in the mix(not as flush as many would think), and when he does he comes back and hurts them.

I actually felt like Pavlik was kind of mechanical, too, but that was just after watching his last fight. It didn't seem that way against Miranda or Taylor. Anyway, yeah, I do honestly think Kessler is a tad faster than Taylor, but that's not why Taylor lost to Pavlik. I'd say his loss was maybe 80% poor conditioning.

My point is this if Taylor couldn't get away from Pavlik's power do you really think that Kessler can? I'd say Taylor is way more skilled over all. Pavlik just hits hard. I'd probably say that Kessler really doesn't hit harder then Pavlik. Power between 160 and 168 wouldn't be as big as in lighter divisions(power punchers in 160 can easily go to 168 and maintain). Pavlik would be stronger at 168 then 160 because he would not be weight drained, he admitted it was hard to make weight.

Taylor and Kessler are nothing alike in the ring, and I wouldn't begin to compare them. Taylor fights low, carries his guard low, and tends to have a lower work rate (lately) than most middleweights. Kessler has a much higher work rate, has (I feel) better handspeed, counters probably a little better (Taylor does counter nicely), and, more importantly, leads much better than Taylor. And as far as power (comparing Kessler and Pavlik), I guess it doesn't much matter. I think either fighter has the toolbox to get the job done if they get the right opening. I definitely think Kessler is a harder puncher than Taylor, at least that's my impression.

I'd also say that Kessler would be facing the strongest fighter he has ever fought in Pavlik. Kessler may not be the stronger fighter, Pavlik systematically destructs fighters.

I will admit I have not seen many Kessler fights, but I would say Pavlik is more impressive when I watch him. I just can't see Kessler doing well against Pavlik, he would do exactly what Pavlik needs and that is come at him and try to overwhelm him. Pavlik is battle tested and dominant, patient and a narley finisher.

All in all, you're probably right about him facing the strongest fighter ever if he gets a fight with Pavlik. Calzaghe is actually a pretty strong fighter, but doesn't throw hard that often anymore, though he's about as durable as anyone I've ever seen his size. I think, more than anything, if Kessler and Pavlik fight, it'll be a contest of skills and wills. I think Kessler is more highly skilled, and I think Pavlik is stronger willed, and I couldn't begin to actually predict the outcome to this fight, should it ever happen. One thing's for sure, though, I'll probably be buying the PPV rematch.

[Stickman]

One thing I forgot to add...you stated you felt Pavlik was more impressive....mostly, I agree, but think about this: Kelly is 6'2" tall, and has what....75" reach? That kid is a MONSTROUS middleweight, and that does tend to make for impressive performances. Size matters, and Pavlik has it. Kessler is closer to his size than Taylor, and Lockett at least 4 or 5 inches shorter than Kelly Pavlik. Mark my words, within a year or 3, Kelly Pavlik will be fighting exclusively at SM, and within 5, he'll probably have several showings at LH. The kid has the frame to support a move to cruiser towards the end of his career, if he wanted to.

[poeticlsykuac]

[QUOTE=Stickman;3632138]One thing I forgot to add...you stated you felt Pavlik was more impressive....mostly, I agree, but think about this: Kelly is 6'2" tall, and has what....75" reach? That kid is a MONSTROUS middleweight, and that does tend to make for impressive performances. Size matters, and Pavlik has it. Kessler is closer to his size than Taylor, and Lockett at least 4 or 5 inches shorter than Kelly Pavlik. Mark my words, within a year or 3, Kelly Pavlik will be fighting exclusively at SM, and within 5, he'll probably have several showings at LH. The kid has the frame to support a move to cruiser towards the end of his career, if he wanted to.[/QUOTE

Both are good responses. I brought up Taylor because I think he had better tools to avoid Pavlik's power with footwork and solid jab(he was to scared of Pavlik's by the end of the fight lol) etc. Pavlik will be a SM in the next 2 I'd say. He likes to fight often, I could see him cleaning this division out in 2 years or less and moving up, if he doesn't move up any ways. Kessler does fight tall in comparison to Taylor I do agree with that(lazier almost). Kessler and Taylor are the same height. I think fighting lower is a good concept against Pavlik, he has a massive body and I'd beat up on that thing all day long if I was facing his power. Kessler I would say is slower(or is it less flashy?), Taylor is a extremely gifted athlete. Kessler to me just seems to be a less fluid fighter, to me that could be bad because Pavlik is so busy you have to open up when you get a chance, but you are right in that Kessler is a busier fighter then Taylor. Kessler does slow up though when some one is consistently on attack, Pavlik never stops coming foward(at least I haven't seen it), even when he was hurt by Taylor he was walking foward.

But to me that jab is so difficult, the only person I've seen with that type of jab in the last 10 years in the lower divisions is Ike "bazooka" Quartey(Sturm has a solid one but nothing else), a power puncher that hurt you with his jab lol. The way I've observed boxing, is if you have a good jab(especially a powerful one that makes fighters flinch) with power the only thing that can consistently beat it is a good double jab. I mean Pavlik is a sound fighter nothing special from a boxing stand point, has a narley jab, good work rate, a solid heart, a good chin, solid footwork, and ridiculous power. He just doesn't shimmer in any category dude just hits hard.