Who’s better p4p. Pavlik or Kessler? And why does Pavlik get a freebee?

[abadger]

Beyer is probably less of a bum than Andrade that guy is useless at least Beyer held the World Title

that is true his wins over Hopkins do flatter Taylor but think about it if Hopkins was to old then and that was in 2005 what does that say about his credentials in 2008 against Calzaghe a fight that was very close ?

I now Beyer had a better career, but he was **** against Kessler, he looked like he couldn't wait to lie down.

As for the Taylor/Calz/Hop thing, I have always maintained that Hopkins was too old to beat Calzaghe and I don't get to excited about Calz beating him. I was very surprised that Hopkins was able to make the fight look so close. I think a key difference is that when he fought Taylor, though his output was low he was still trying to fight like a MW boxer, whereas against Calzaghe he literally put everything into spoiling. Like I said though, the fight definitely raised some questions about how much calzaghe himself has left.

[Dynamite Kid]

I now Beyer had a better career, but he was **** against Kessler, he looked like he couldn't wait to lie down.

As for the Taylor/Calz/Hop thing, I have always maintained that Hopkins was too old to beat Calzaghe and I don't get to excited about Calz beating him. I was very surprised that Hopkins was able to make the fight look so close. I think a key difference is that when he fought Taylor, though his output was low he was still trying to fight like a MW boxer, whereas against Calzaghe he literally put everything into spoiling. Like I said though, the fight definitely raised some questions about how much calzaghe himself has left.

fair enough

did u see the damn size of Hopkins against Calzaghe he looked like a CW rather than a LHW

[abadger]

You need to stop rating fighters on what you think is likely to happen in the future I think. I don't think you can say "well, sure the Taylor wins make Pavlik's resume look better than Kessler's but over the next few years Taylor will be exposed as a bum and therefore Kessler should be rated higher", which is effectively what I think you are saying.

The bottom line is this, whatever way you spin it, the Taylor wins for Pavlik are far and away better than Mikkel's best win which is most likely Anthony Mundine. In a few years Kessler may well be a top 5 p4p fighter and above Pavlik, it wouldn't surprise me. But, at this stage, to have Kessler over Pavlik in the p4p ratings is, IMO, showing considerable bias and not very credible.

On Taylor, the point is that I'm not rating him on what will happen in the future, thats what those who say he is great do. He has two good wins over Hopkins, but which he didn't look good in winning, and has performed OK to poorly since then. He is a 'world class' boxer who has never turned in a truly world class performance.

As for the more general point about 'rating on what will happen in the future', I don't believe this is something I do. What I do rate on is the evidence of my eyes and my opinion of a fighter based on watching them. This is what leads to me to rate Kessler as better than Pavlik, the fact that I think he is really quite a lot more skilled. I could flip the argument around and say that we can't rate a fighters ability based solely on his record, because they can be misleading and ignores the fighter standing before us in the here and now.

I guess it comes down to what P4P means. Does it mean "who has the most impressive record and would be the hypothetical champion if boxers competed in a league like structure, accumulating points for wins", or does it mean "who would beat who were they to fight". I tend to favour the latter, but I realise that not everyone does.

[abadger]

fair enough

did u see the damn size of Hopkins against Calzaghe he looked like a CW rather than a LHW

Yes, I've commented on this before. As much as his fans don't like to admit it, Hopkins especially later in his career used size to his advantage a lot. Thats not a diss, its a legitimate tactic if he makes the weight, so its just an observation.

Anyway, in the Calzaghe fight it helped him a lot I would say, he was quite clearly much bigger and stronger than Joe and thats what made his clinching effective. Hopkins is quite impressive in a way, he sure knows how to try and tip the scales in his favour, by any available means.

[Dan...]

On Taylor, the point is that I'm not rating him on what will happen in the future, thats what those who say he is great do. He has two good wins over Hopkins, but which he didn't look good in winning, and has performed OK to poorly since then. He is a 'world class' boxer who has never turned in a truly world class performance.

As for the more general point about 'rating on what will happen in the future', I don't believe this is something I do. What I do rate on is the evidence of my eyes and my opinion of a fighter based on watching them. This is what leads to me to rate Kessler as better than Pavlik, the fact that I think he is really quite a lot more skilled. I could flip the argument around and say that we can't rate a fighters ability based solely on his record, because they can be misleading and ignores the fighter standing before us in the here and now.

I guess it comes down to what P4P means. Does it mean "who has the most impressive record and would be the hypothetical champion if boxers competed in a league like structure, accumulating points for wins", or does it mean "who would beat who were they to fight". I tend to favour the latter, but I realise that not everyone does.

That's fine. I pretty much just rate on accomplishments, impressiveness of performances and competition faced. Both Kelly and Mikkel have, in my opinion been extremely impressive in their victories to this point so I would probably split that one. In the other two, I rate Pavlik over Kessler. I don't think "who would beat who" is an appropriate p4p measure.

[BattlingNelson]

This needs a bump!

[daggum]

enough talk about this spoiling. you realize spoiling is just another way of saying he's better than you and you can't do nothing about it.