Old Timers vs The New Blood

[aussieboxer2320]

the Heavyweights

it's an interesting subject due to the whole weight differential alone

i decided to come up with this thread because i've noticed a lot of debates going on, particularly about david haye vs ali, louis, and other all time greats. but it's not just about David haye, it's the whole cocept of comparing today's big men to the past era's big but smaller men.

to me personally, i'd always go with old school, all the way. however given the weight disparity it makes me wonder at times.

today there are very few conditioned big men. you can almost count them on your fingers. the first heavyweight fighter that comes to mind is obviously klitschko. a big, strong, tall, muscular, broad-shouldered athletic man with a devastating punching power. minus the chin, it does raise questions how smaller heavyweights like marciano, louis, dempsey (really lean heavies, cruisers today) could compete with such big men. and we're talking about a really proportioned size, not just fat, or a deceiving physique, but really big fit men. even guys like peter who scale 250 pounds, or rahman, or tua, how can they be matched against guys like marciano, 180 pounds? it wouldnt be allowed.

you really have to pay respect to great old time fighters, because they build this sport on their great performances and superb warrior showings. but we also have to take into consideration how other great fighters in smaller weight classes move up in weigth and come up short in their victories, due to the obvious factor: the size of the other fighter.

i would favour Muhammad Ali against any other big guy because ali was already a modern heavyweight, not as big as some of the fighters today, but decent at 6'3, 210-215 pounds. and he didnt rely on power in his fights.

i want to know the opinions of other boxing fans on what is the whole deal about this. a fighter like Joe Louis, an all time great, was an exceptional fighter, but how would he deal with guys like tyson, lewis, and klitshko. Louis, Dempsey both at 6'1, maybe another generous plus inch, 200 pounds, dempsey lower in weight, marciano, 5'10 180 pounds, joe frazier 5'11, 208 (we've seen what happened to Joe when he tasted the power of a truly, powerful, modern heavyweight in Foreman) and the rest of the smaller fighters against today's heavies.

work ethic undisputedly would go to old timers. they treated boxing like their work not an entertainment million dollar show biz. but the disparity in power, and athletism, improved training of today's athletes? i think majority of old timers would fall a little short.

Thoughts???

SIZE ISNT EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! rocky marciano would ****ing murder wlad klitchsco or how ever the **** you spell his name all these modern heavyweights are fat fakes, a middleweight like SRR would school their asses. boxing isnt rugby or american football, the bigger man doesnt always win , its more about how you think and how many skills you got than how big your biceps are, grow a brain.

jack dempsey vs wlad haha jack dempsey nearly killed jess willard who was about wlads size. boxing aint akways bout modern training and that crap. why do you think people follow boxing less these days? its cos these heavyweights like wlad are complete fakes and we got other fighters who wont fight anyone

[Sugarj]

You cant compare Jess Willard to Wlad Klitchko, size and skin colour aside, Klitchko is a much different, better schooled, more technical fighter.

Just watch the old films of Jess Willard, his technique was very amateurish.

And sadly the good bigger guys statistically do tend to beat the good smaller ones, so the American Football example is weak!

As for Sugar Ray Robinson schooling the big boys today.......yes I'm sure he could in a trainer's role should he have still been with us, but in the ring with the height, weight and reach disparity...............no chance!

[Boogie Nights]

You cant compare Jess Willard to Wlad Klitchko, size and skin colour aside, Klitchko is a much different, better schooled, more technical fighter.

Just watch the old films of Jess Willard, his technique was very amateurish.

And sadly the good bigger guys statistically do tend to beat the good smaller ones, so the American Football example is weak!

As for Sugar Ray Robinson schooling the big boys today.......yes I'm sure he could in a trainer's role should he have still been with us, but in the ring with the height, weight and reach disparity...............no chance!

obviously the guy who compared wilard to klitschko was biased or came into the world just yesterday. he says size isnt everything it's about brain, fair enough, but i dont remember Dempsey using brains to seek out vctories lol dempsey was using brute strength and when he met a scientific boxer in tunney he ran short of ideas, technically tunney is not even in wlad's or lewis league, plus the power it's a no contest. gene barely scaled 190 pounds and administered a pretty vicious beating on dempsey, and gene wasnt even considered a puncher.

same would go for rocky marciano who didnt know much about the boxing book as famously put by the great joe louis himself. and for that matter frazier, although a smart boxer, joe didnt bother much with strategy as his bread and butter was to charge forward and put the heat on. joe is a great fighter, but we've seen what happened when he faced a big muscular bulky heavyweight. foreman-frazier was a fight strictly decided by power, as no man relied on tactics in the ring.

so it's tough seeing smaller men competing with such large heavies of today. rocky marciano as great as he was was would suffer from reach and height disadvantage alone. 69 inch reach for rock, that's a reach of a flyweight, put that against a guy like wlad with 82 inch reach, he'd be jabbing him all night before throwing a powerfull right which i dont think rocky can take.

saying that sugar ray robinson would beat heavies of today is also another dillusional statement and quite ridiculous. if he was around today he'd be a dominant welterweight that he was in his hey day, would be a superb middleweight wiping the competition in today's current great fighter kelly pavlik, and quite possibly with the way light heavyweight division is today robinson's power might as well carry him to the championship reign at 175 as well. anything beyond light heavyweight you can forget about it, if he couldnt beat joe maxim you expect him to stand up to heavies, no matter from what era, sugar ray robinson was no heavyweight period.

but this thread is about heavyweights of past era vs the current era. there're pretty strong heavies today with potential but no real desire to get in decent shape to compete at a higher level. opinions here vary but facts are obvious. fighters of the old era were tougher than nails, and could possibly compete with today's giants, but their records wouldnt look as glorious as they do now in the hall of fame.

[TheGreatA]

i saw frazier's picture when he was about 230 pounds, and he was plain fat in that pic. i'd say he had about 60% fat of the whole body, and guys like ibragimov, or chagaev looked much better at 230 or 220 than he did at that weight. joe was a tremendous warrior and he did slim down to better his conditioning however it was very neccessary for him to take that weight off, otherwise he would never become champion.

Ibragimov and Chagaev used to fight at 200 lbs when they were amateurs but added up some lbs to fight in the HW division where the money is at.
Byrd also said that he "ate his way" to the HW division, now he is 180 lbs and tries to fight at LHW. We all know James Toney...

but that still doesnt answer the question. i hold the opinion that as tough as joe was he'd still get knocked out against likes of wlad, lewis or tyson. possibly even against a guy like ray mercer who was no slouch.

Lewis is a bad match-up for Frazier because of his height (6'5"), reachy jab (84" reach) and the powerful uppercut he had. Lewis did well against shorter guys (Tyson and Tua) but Mercer gave him trouble (Mercer had a good jab).

Wladimir is a bad match-up as well for similar reasons but he lacks the uppercut and has been known to tire in the past.
If Frazier can get past Wladimir's jab, he could possibly tire Wlad out with body punches.
Brewster could do this and so could Frazier but Wladimir showed in the rematch what he could possibly do to Frazier.


Brewster got beat up for 4 rounds, landed some body shots, landed some left hooks and won.

Tyson and Frazier is a nearly even match-up IMO but Tyson has the advantage because he started fast... and Frazier started slow.

But when Frazier started to get going, Tyson started to lose his focus.
Tyson's uppercut could do the job in the first six rounds but if it goes longer than that, Frazier's mental strenght and conditioning gives him the advantage.

Mercer could trouble Frazier but he was too inconsistent, he barely got past Jesse Ferguson (lost and won decisions) and lost to old Larry Holmes. He also drew with Marion Wilson.
He does have a chance against anyone if he shows up like he did against Holyfield and Lewis.

same would go for rocky marciano who didnt know much about the boxing book as famously put by the great joe louis himself. and for that matter frazier, although a smart boxer, joe didnt bother much with strategy as his bread and butter was to charge forward and put the heat on. joe is a great fighter, but we've seen what happened when he faced a big muscular bulky heavyweight. foreman-frazier was a fight strictly decided by power, as no man relied on tactics in the ring.

No, Foreman did use ring tactics (as primitive as they may seem).

Foreman pushed Frazier off (which is actually illegal), jabbed, kept him at distance and made Frazier pay every time he tried to get close to Foreman to work on the inside.

In the rematch, Frazier didn't come at Foreman like he did in their first fight and did well for 5 rounds but he was too old by then, completely shot as a fighter (half-blind and back injuries).

Foreman is an ugly match-up for Frazier because of his height, reach, strenght, power and strong chin.
He also has a strong jab and an uppercut that works well against Frazier's bob & weave defense.

The only chance Frazier has against Foreman is to survive for more than 6 rounds when Foreman starts to get tired.

[Boogie Nights]

Ibragimov and Chagaev used to fight at 200 lbs when they were amateurs but added up some lbs to fight in the HW division where the money is at.
Byrd also said that he "ate his way" to the HW division, now he is 180 lbs and tries to fight at LHW. We all know James Toney...



Lewis is a bad match-up for Frazier because of his height (6'5"), reachy jab (84" reach) and the powerful uppercut he had. Lewis did well against shorter guys (Tyson and Tua) but Mercer gave him trouble (Mercer had a good jab).

Wladimir is a bad match-up as well for similar reasons but he lacks the uppercut and has been known to tire in the past.
If Frazier can get past Wladimir's jab, he could possibly tire Wlad out with body punches.
Brewster could do this and so could Frazier but Wladimir showed in the rematch what he could possibly do to Frazier.


Brewster got beat up for 4 rounds, landed some body shots, landed some left hooks and won.

Tyson and Frazier is a nearly even match-up IMO but Tyson has the advantage because he started fast... and Frazier started slow.

But when Frazier started to get going, Tyson started to lose his focus.
Tyson's uppercut could do the job in the first six rounds but if it goes longer than that, Frazier's mental strenght and conditioning gives him the advantage.

Mercer could trouble Frazier but he was too inconsistent, he barely got past Jesse Ferguson (lost and won decisions) and lost to old Larry Holmes. He also drew with Marion Wilson.
He does have a chance against anyone if he shows up like he did against Holyfield and Lewis.



No, Foreman did use ring tactics (as primitive as they may seem).

Foreman pushed Frazier off (which is actually illegal), jabbed, kept him at distance and made Frazier pay every time he tried to get close to Foreman to work on the inside.

In the rematch, Frazier didn't come at Foreman like he did in their first fight and did well for 5 rounds but he was too old by then, completely shot as a fighter (half-blind and back injuries).

Foreman is an ugly match-up for Frazier because of his height, reach, strenght, power and strong chin.
He also has a strong jab and an uppercut that works well against Frazier's bob & weave defense.

The only chance Frazier has against Foreman is to survive for more than 6 rounds when Foreman starts to get tired.

some good points here, no bs.

so in other words fans would agree that a modern athlete, as bad as he may be in comparisson, would hold the edge over smaller men. that obviously would go for marciano, and dempsey who had similar straight forward attacking style as frazier did. with bigger guys i dont think they can have a luxury with that kind of offence. it would call for respect for their opponent's offensive abilities which would fare more successfuly if put on display. but we also not matching fighters against only lewis or wlad. i mean i was watching ringside for lennox lewis and they had tommy morrison as a guest who said that guys like rocky and louis couldnt stand in the ring with him because of the lack of size. when not taking into account morrison's chin, he was a terrific offensive fighter who would have at least 20 good pounds on any old timer. of course steroids is another issue but size is size. although given all the advantages i do see rocky standing up to morrison because of his chin and power, given rocky would come in at 200 or 205 on fight night.

like i said it's a subject of debate, but taking on the role of an advocate, it is interesting watching a guy like james toney, a former middleweight and really fat heavyweight duking it out with big men like rahman, and peter twice. but james got a distinctive style, he's very good defensively. i mean if toney could do it, then other fighters might have a good chance. but toney was never a ****er.

also heavyweights today fight with 10 ounce gloves, which i also feel would be a problem for small guys, giving them even a lesser chance of hurting their opponent.