How Lewis Broke The Mike Tyson Mystique: Part 1

[Mr. Violence]

I'd say the mystique was over when Douglas beat his ass

[On The Humble]

As a self-professed student of the fight game, you'll understand that fighters are better judged by their accomplishement, not by their potential. Sure Mike had all the physical attributes to be Champ, but lacked the mental prowess that sets truly great fighters from "the rest". His instincts in the ring were unmatched in his prime years, but he was mentally unprepared for both the successes and for the challenges of Champ, which require you to apply both your physical and mental strengths, for which he lacked the latter.

Sure, he was great for a time, but he fell from greatness and did not return. If he had made a successful comeback, by any standard, the debate might be more in his favour. But, for now, Mike is probably best recognized as the greatest lost talent in boxing history, which is not exactly the stuff of greatness.

People will rightfully continue to compare Mike and Lennox, based on individual skills and such, but unfortunately not based on a real fight when both were young and most game. Instead, we're left comparing the two fighter's accomplishments, which we should stress did not occur entirely in two separate eras. So, the argument in favour of Mike being the better fighter than Lennox is completely unfounded, except as a matter of opinion, while the records will show that Lennox won both the physical matchup against all ooposition AND when facing adversity in the form of two devestating KO's, also showed the mental strength of a True Great by avenging those losses. Mike's record, on the other hand, will show the 6 losses (5 KOs) including the Holyfield rematch that brought him shame, when he had a chance to avenge and be rewarded with glory.

Just saying great in "Some" way. A lot of people knock him for an amalgam of reasons and say he wasn't a great. Yet, in other breaths, they recognize how "great he was." Huh?!

[JC Warrior]

Tyson's era of dominance was awesome and Lewis victory over Tyson does nothing to detract from it. Douglas showed the world Tyson could be beaten. Holyfield showed that with enough grabbing, headbutting, and steroids you could clean Tyson's clock. By the time Lewis fought Tyson it was academic. The only thing really proven when Lewis fought Tyson was that Mike could sell out an arena in the equivalent of boxing's middle of nowhere-ville USA.

Using a 36 year old Tyson as a career defining credential for Lewis is the same as Tyson being declared a heavyweight great because he beat 38 year old Larry Holmes. Giving Lewis credit for beating everyone he faced is one thing sure mental toughness blah blah, if he had flattened Rahman the first time they fought no one would have been amazed, its what was supposed to happen. When Lewis got stretched twice by single punches at the peak of his tenures as champ suggest that when the going got too tough his supposed mental strength was nowhere to be found. It was in fact his mental lethargy that manifested itself.

[Neckodeemus]

Tyson didnt always go into a shell when under pressure, it was a difficult fight for him against Tucker he was tied up alot and it was made very difficult for him. Fighters have bad days as Lewis had a few in his career. McCall may be underated but i still think that the McCall that Beat lewis would lose to the Douglas that beat tyson. OK back to tyson not shelling up all the time, against Bruno he got caught with a big shot in the first round and fought back, i remember watching an interview or in Brunos biography it went something along the lines of this " I hit tyson with a good shot, but like any great champion when he got hurt he fought back". Against Ruddock Tyson got hit with big shots and took them and won, after the first fight he said Ruddock punched like a Mule, yet still went for a re-match to prove he beat him.
As for avenging the losses, Tyson lost to Douglas in 1990 and in the same year fought tillman and stewart then the next year Ruddock. 3 fights in a short amount of time, which shows how he wanted to regain the titles as quickly as possible, but before he had the chance to give Buster a re-match he had lost to evander, and then tyson went to prison. By the time buster came back to boxing Tyson had beaten Bruno for the WBC title and then went for seldon. So a re-match was not really possible for tyson, he had a bigger goal of becomming the undisputed champion of the world. As for holyfield he tried but failed, however by this time and probably before it his skills had faded.
As for the sparring in the lewis tyson documentary lewis says that he spared with tyson and was told by Cus one day they would met.. and he thought "God i hope i never met this guy his an animal". Also after the fight when ask if he regreted this fight didnt happen earlier he replied " 10 years ago that was tysons time he was king and no1 was going to stop him, but im like fine wine and i matured as i aged and now its my time".
Just a side note : Lewis' re-matchs with McCall and Rahman were straight after he lost the title and he fought them to regain the titles, if they would have lost the titles would he have gone after them? or for the championship?. Im not trying to take anything away from lewis, but it worked out better in that sence for him than it did for Tyson. As for tysons later losses they were nothing more than money fights.

Lewis fought Rahman right after losing the title but had to wait around for the rematch with McCall and did not fight him right after losing the title. In fact his first fight back from defeat was against the then dangerous Lionel Butler, he also had to face Mercer and Morrison so it was hardly a quick return.

As for the pressure issue, Bruno got a great left hook in but then failed to follow-up and ended the round messily. Real pressure in my mind is when Tyson faced a guy who was dropping jabs and right hands then tying him up. He could not cope under that and could be tagged and bullied inside. Tyson was impressively muscled but was like a rag doll on the inside with some guys.

The rematch issue is still a factor against him, sure he went for victories afterl osing to Douglas but never got that shot. His own indiscretions (although I don't buy him as a rapist, he was foolish) led to him missing out on the title. The other rematch he got after a loss saw him quit-out, Holyfield II. He got a rematch with Ruddock but Ruddock was a fun to watch guy who was beatable, as Lewis showed.

I think that the sparring is a little intangible issue but if Lewis stood up to a shellacking in sparring then in my mind that would have stamped a mark on Tyson, who was a bully. Over his career he showed far more mental toughness, he did not have Don King lining up stiffs and titles. Ali, a true great, came from a lay-off to fight Quarry, Tyson McNeeley.

[Neckodeemus]

I was going to get into some of that stuff you mentioned, Iron Man... but you said enough. Well said. Oh, Tucker also caught Mike with a big uppercut.


Below I'm responding to Neckodemus:
I don't even count the slip and left hook to Carl Williams as Mike at his best... he was already showing a lack of desire and training. Mike said, "How dare they challenge me with their primitive skills" after the Bruno fight, not Williams. That right hand could be seen a mile away, but you're right--even without Rooney, he got to him. And Holmes showed a little flare in the 4th round, but was old and easily taken apart. I don't recall a right over Mike's jab at all.... hmmm.

And I think we'll see some Lewises but we'll never see another Mike Tyson.
Good reading. Thanks for the words.

Ah, thanks for that, thought it was the Williams bout for some reason and it always struck me as odd.

The right over the jab was Holmes doing well against Williams to counter the jab and exposing a weakness Carl had, that was exposed by Weaver also and then Mike. I was illustrating a point but it was late over here and I may have done so badly. Holmes briefly got on his toes at one point and flicked jabs but it was not the Holmes we all knew. He used to stand his ground somewhat and power jabs when in his pomp.

I hope we do see a Tyson or Lewis again, the division is very poor right now. A Michael Dokes, Greg Page or Pinklon Thomas would clean up. A Lewis or Tyson would rule.

Thanks for the replies.

[Benny Leonard]

I agree that King wanted Lewis, he was said to have once sent him a car as a gift but it speaks volumes about the fact that King did not rate Tyson as able to beat Lewis. King hurt Tyson's career but no one made Tyson leave capable management to sign with King al those years ago. Tyson paid his price and took his chances.

King was terrible for Tyson, but I do agree it was Tyson's problem first since he made the decision to leave his original team and couldn't seem to break himself of King.

I still don't think Tyson wanted to fight after his release from prison, let alone after Spinks.

Tyson knows his history and he had to have thought to himself "how am I going to pull this off" (in referring to his 3 year layoff). Ali came back after a 3+ year layoff and was never the same physically, despite being still young. Dempsey stopped fighting for 3 years and he came back and lost to Tunney.

Someone like Tyson, with his height and fighting style must be at a high level mentally and physically or it doesn't work.

I remember Tyson continuance of saying he needed more time, more build up fights before fighting for the title; which would indicate his knowing he had to take his time to rebuild himself mentally and physically. Or just that he knew he was shot and had to buy time milking his career to pay back Uncle Sam and have a few coins for his kids and himself.
It was the pressure from King, the Fans and the Media that pushed him past what should have been the plan: to take it slow, as Foreman did when he came back. Credit to Ali for going right after tough fights, but he did lose to Frazier the first time...and, it’s Ali.

I don’t think he wanted Lennox after he came out of prison.

For Ruddock, Ruddock claims he was never the same after he fought Tyson. He also claims Tyson was never the same but it probably just helps him cope with losing by feeling he took something away from the winner. Ray Mancini did say something like "You always lose something in a fight, but how much is what will be determined"


It’s unfair to criticize Lewis: he took longer to mature and by the time he matured, Holyfield was battling it out with Bowe, destroying each other, and then Bowe refused to fight him (Lennox). Tyson, burnt out. You cannot fault Lewis for that.

[The Iron Man]

Lewis fought Rahman right after losing the title but had to wait around for the rematch with McCall and did not fight him right after losing the title. In fact his first fight back from defeat was against the then dangerous Lionel Butler, he also had to face Mercer and Morrison so it was hardly a quick return.

As for the pressure issue, Bruno got a great left hook in but then failed to follow-up and ended the round messily. Real pressure in my mind is when Tyson faced a guy who was dropping jabs and right hands then tying him up. He could not cope under that and could be tagged and bullied inside. Tyson was impressively muscled but was like a rag doll on the inside with some guys.

The rematch issue is still a factor against him, sure he went for victories afterl osing to Douglas but never got that shot. His own indiscretions (although I don't buy him as a rapist, he was foolish) led to him missing out on the title. The other rematch he got after a loss saw him quit-out, Holyfield II. He got a rematch with Ruddock but Ruddock was a fun to watch guy who was beatable, as Lewis showed.

I think that the sparring is a little intangible issue but if Lewis stood up to a shellacking in sparring then in my mind that would have stamped a mark on Tyson, who was a bully. Over his career he showed far more mental toughness, he did not have Don King lining up stiffs and titles. Ali, a true great, came from a lay-off to fight Quarry, Tyson McNeeley.

My point with the McCall rematch was that it was there for Lewis, tyson had no chance to re-match douglas and based on the Holyfield and Ruddock fight he would have wanted a re-match. I would also like to add tyson had his title shot he was meant to fight Holyfield in November 1991, but went to prision (i dnt believe he is a rapist either). He did get that shot, just not against that guy like Lewis did. Just as a side note, Lewis had 4 fights between his loss -and the re-match, Tyson would of had 4 (two against the same guy). Ruddock may have been fun to watch but im sure he wasnt fun to fight, he had great power and could knock anyone out. The other fighters were Tillman (gold medalist) and Stewart who done well against holyfield.
The reason Bruno failed to follow-up was because of Tyson you have to give him his dues, as i said even Bruno stated that. I mean Bruno has a brilliant KO record which shows he knew how to take a guy out. As for the sparring, Lewis didnt get the better of Tyson, as i said and he said before he didnt want to fight Tyson again after that!.

Would be cool to know you top 10 Heavyweight list? and were u rate lewis and Tyson?

[Neckodeemus]

My point with the McCall rematch was that it was there for Lewis, tyson had no chance to re-match douglas and based on the Holyfield and Ruddock fight he would have wanted a re-match. I would also like to add tyson had his title shot he was meant to fight Holyfield in November 1991, but went to prision (i dnt believe he is a rapist either). He did get that shot, just not against that guy like Lewis did. Just as a side note, Lewis had 4 fights between his loss -and the re-match, Tyson would of had 4 (two against the same guy). Ruddock may have been fun to watch but im sure he wasnt fun to fight, he had great power and could knock anyone out. The other fighters were Tillman (gold medalist) and Stewart who done well against holyfield.
The reason Bruno failed to follow-up was because of Tyson you have to give him his dues, as i said even Bruno stated that. I mean Bruno has a brilliant KO record which shows he knew how to take a guy out. As for the sparring, Lewis didnt get the better of Tyson, as i said and he said before he didnt want to fight Tyson again after that!.

Would be cool to know you top 10 Heavyweight list? and were u rate lewis and Tyson?

I hear you on the rematch with McCall. both got the fights in the interim but I think the difference is that Lewis had to fight for his shot whereas it was always going to be given to Tyson. Unfortunately the accusations against him, plus the suspect trial, made it all academic and hard to say. I think Holyfield always beats him even then so we might have been having a debate about Holyfield-Mike!

Yeah Tyson got to grips with Bruno desptie being hurt. I think Bruno must have gotten excited. If I clipped Tyson like that I'd probably shout "what is this ****" and look at my own fist.

We'll have to differ on the sparring. Lewis grited it out then got his own stuff done in those rounds. I genuinely believe that stuck on Tyson more than Lewis.

To be honest I never do lists, P4P and Top Ten and that so I had to give it a bit of a think first. We agree on one thing:

1-Holmes
2-Louis
3-Ali

Cannot argue with that, I see yours is similar

4-Lewis
5-Johnson
6-Liston
7-Frazier
8-Foreman
9-Evander
10-Marciano

Tyson missing, not for petty reasons but I think most of those fighters are better and a good few have better resumes. I also think Liston was one of the best contenders ever in the division.

[The Iron Man]

i hear what your saying, but what made me write this more than anything, is not i didnt agree with it because unlike other tyson fans i can accept an opinion. It was the way in which your article was written, it sounded like you were disrespecting Tyson. He was a great fighter, one of the best heavyweights of all time. Its not an accident that the Historians of that era were saying exactly the same thing, and his antics outside the ring have affected his greatness and that is totally wrong!. I guess we will take this into the top 10 heavyweight section!

[wladimir1988]

Lol idiot mike