James Toney, help etc

**P4PKING_2008** · 01-08-2008, 02:35 PM

Wrong forum, buddy.

**judge_jab** · 01-08-2008, 02:39 PM

doesn't it apply to this forum too? A lot of fans of James Toney etc don't box or train but can help me out! Plus other fans can help me out by telling me what fights to watch etc.

thanks

**Slotff** · 01-08-2008, 02:40 PM

Philly shell? Some one has been playing too much fight night round 3.

**t_tsuguri** · 01-08-2008, 04:00 PM

The philly shell would naturally work better against fighters that are the same height as you or taller. It baits in the long punches of your opponent while allowing you to move in on varying angles in order to set up your own counter shots. It's also more predisposed to in-fighting and close quarter punching making it difficult to use on shorter guys whose shorter limbs are naturally more effective on the inside. I do not personally use the philly shell even though I would love to. James Toney is one of my all time favourite fighters and I loved the way he, Archie Moore, and PBF use it to out-slick their opponents. All I can say is keep your chin down.

However, my main concern is that the philly shell is a pro's style. I'm a little weary of someone simply adopting it in an attempt to make it work for themselves, like I did early on in my training. Without proper guidance you will eat alot of punches. Nor is it the most effective style to use in the amateurs. At this stage of the game I would place more emphasis on a jab and almost all of your attention on footwork. So go to your coach first and see if he can train you in using the philly shell. Without the proper training the shell won't work for you...

**judge_jab** · 01-08-2008, 04:16 PM

My gym does not fight in the amateurs, the fighters fight in white collar shows then if they do well at that they join the EBF (European Boxing Federation) which is essentially semi professional, no head guard etc 10oz gloves but it is 3x3 rounds.

So I do not have to worry about it being a pro style. However, I thought it was the exact opposite and that it was an amateur style as it is very technical and in/out etc.

My trainer has seen me use it in light sparring around the gym and didn't say anything. When we were doing a jab drill I was using it but he stopped me and said I needed very fast hands to be able to pull it off.

I train in 16oz gloves but without my gloves on I am easily one of the fastest in the gym. I have very fast hands but with the gloves on I'm pretty average if that. Will this just come with time as my shoulders get stronger and my endurance increases. I have bought some 20 oz bag gloves on my own at home.

When I am on the heavy bag, and in the ring with my trainer I always use traditional as I don't want him to tell me off but when I am sparring, around the gym (no ring) I use it quite well.

I don't feel comfortable at all with the classic guard so have no idea what to use.

The funny thing is, my trainer uses the philly shell lol and hes a heavyweight, though he is fast.

**judge_jab** · 01-10-2008, 10:16 AM

hello? ................................

**Rane-Ex54** · 01-10-2008, 11:18 AM

Got this from another forum:

Just want to say that most guys shouldn't even consider this style, while James Toney and Mayweather have had huge success with it (and De La Hoya even toys with it sometimes), those guys are the elite of the boxing world. This may not be too coherent as I'm just typing off of the top of my head and whatever goes into this post is just what popped into my thoughts at the time. Okay, here goes...

"Philly Shell"

basic things to note:

- Left hand held just above the waist, around stomach-height, held across the midsection (sometimes held at 90 degrees but not always) so that your left fist is nearly touching your right elbow

- right hand held high, you should be easily able to hold your chin between your thumb and pointer finger. Your elbow should be a couple of inches from the right of your belly button and very tight to your body

- Bury your chin in your left shoulder and roll it slightly forward

- your stance should be very "Sideways" (for boxers this is the norm but MMA guys may not be familiar with it so much - not saying you should use this in MMA of course hah), and you should carry your back foot somewhat in the bucket (slightly sideways)

- Very mobile stance, keep a "thumbtack under your heels" (i.e. don't plant your feet but you're not exactly on your toes either, there should be enough room for a thumbtack to fit under there). That isn't to say this style is restricted to outside fighting, James Toney makes great use of it on the inside, but it is primarily a defensive/counter-punching style and movement/footwork are both integral to good defense

- Keep your head in line or slightly outside of your opponent's left shoulder to further frustrate their attempts to establish the right hand when you're in close. This also works to put "pressure without punching" on your opponent, which will make them feel obligated to punch at such a close range. With your head outside of their left shoulders, slipping the jab is a small, easy movement, and their right hand is often not a viable shot in this position, so you're relatively safe. Still, being so close to them, they'll often feel obligated to throw leather (even in a less-than-ideal position like the one they're now in) which means more countering opportunities as they over-reach and get frustrated

some benefits I've noted with my limited experience with this style:

- jabbing from the waist (well not quite but it's from way down low) is very sneaky and will often catch your opponent and throw him off as it is a punch coming from below his field of vision. The punch you don't see is the one that hurts you, so a stiff jab can do some damage here as well as score consistently

- Left arm, being held so low, acts as an effective "shield" against body attacks (i.e. any efforts to hit that spleen as was discussed recently in another thread)

- inside fighting makes their body accessible to your short left hook. It won't be an overly powerful punch because you'll be somewhat crowded, but a) you'll score and b) body punches are about PLACEMENT not power, so don't think it won't hurt 'em. If you can create distance well with your left shoulder in addition to your "body shield" low-left, combined with effective use of the shoulder roll, it means you have little to worry about from their right side at all (where your left hook will be digging) other than the uppercut

- very solid defense if you can manage the shoulder roll, advanced head movement and right hand parry (however, often the shoulder roll will leave the punch glancing off of the crown of your head. It won't hurt, but it MAY score. Some of the advanced head movement tricks i.e. turn your turn away from a punch to move your chin out of range actually make the punch look more damaging that it is so be mindful that you will be undamaged physically, but it may hurt you in the judges eyes)

- big countering opportunities. The shoulder roll defense is used best to defend your opponent's cross and then twisting back with a right hand of your own (or an uppercut if you're in close) followed by a left hook to the body (as their right hand may be slow coming back, you could hit the liver and freeze them)

possible weaknesses to exploit (stuff that I've found that works when faced with these guys):
- If faced with this style, work their left shoulder HARD. Slam hooks and stiff jabs into the meat of their shoulder (doubling up from shoulder/head works nicely for either punch), being mindful of their right hand (turn your punches over fully to force your shoulder up to cover your chin against the cross). Try to keep outsider of their left shoulder (they'll be trying to same so it can end up you two jockeying for that sweet spot) so that it is aligned with your own left hand. This puts their "sneaky" low left in plain sight, right infront of you, forcing it to be your focus (considering the right hand is now less of a problem because you're so far to their left side) so you won't get caught and suprised by it. If you want to throw a right hand, that's fine and definitely does it's damage, just be wary of their shoulder roll/right hand counter - it's their bread and butter.

Eventually after a round or two of concentrating blows on that left shoulder, you'll "numb" their shoulder and blunt it's effectiveness, possibly even totally shutting out their jab and hook.

When you're working their shoulder, you aren't scoring, so these need to be power punches or they'se just a waste of your time/effort. Your goal here is DAMAGE, not points

- Use a consistent jab to occupy their right hand. They may not be as quick countering your jab with their left because it has to travel further than normal, so exploit that. Just watch out for the right hand parry/straight right hand counter. Mix in feints and hooks off of the jab to overload their right hand's workload and you'll land with some regularity

- Target the body often and with BAD INTENTIONS. Dig the straight right to the body lots! You'll either hit their body (awesome), or worst case scenario is that you'll whack their low left arm, which only helps build up the damage you're trying to do and slow them down even more

- counter their jab with your right hand. It's a bit toughter to roll their shoulder to absorb the right hand when they're retracting the jab with the same arm, not to mention the right hand parry/straight right hand is a great often unexpected parry in itself

All I can think of for now hope some of this is helpful and makes sense

**judge_jab** · 01-10-2008, 01:11 PM

thanks, but I've seen that before, do you know any fights where it is used particuarly effectively?

James Toney, help etc