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**butterfly1964** · 10-30-2006, 05:42 PM

Winners taking it all.
Legends taking the fall.
Quarterbacks taking the ball.
And history, recording it all.
Welcome back, to Who's Number 1.

15

15

15. Wolgast-Rivers I Double Knockout: On July 4, 1912, lightweight champion Ad Wolgast took on Mexican Joe Rivers. In the thirteenth round, the challenger floored Wolgast. Wolgast however on the way down, low blows Rivers, sending Rivers down as well, holding his groin. The referee doesn't start a count until one of the men rises. After a while champion Wolgast rises, and so the referee counts out Rivers, who was not floored, but fouled, in what is known as the infamous "Double Knockout".

After Wolgast retained his title, a storm of controversy arose. Many people claimed that Wolgast was down for more than ten seconds, and that Rivers shouldn't have been counted out in the first place, since he never was legitimately floored. Some even said that the bell rang while both men were down, and the fight should have continued into the fourteenth round.

That whole fight was a mess, and nobdy knew what to make of it, but they should have started a count, when Wolgast went down.

Wolgast was out. He couldn't get up, and the referee made a terrible mistke by not picking up the count immediately.

Wolgast and Rivers rematched two years later. That fight ended in a draw.

14

14

14. The Schmeling-Sharkey II Decision: On June 21, 1932, heavyweight champion Max Schmeling rematched Jack Sharkey in the Madison Square Garden Bowl. Sharkey was a crowd favorite as everyone wanted the championship to be held by an American. Many people say that the judges helped him a bit, because many people claimed that after the bell rang ending the fight, that Schmeling had done enough to retain his title. However, a split decision was awarded to Sharkey, and he became heavyweight champion.

Even Sharkey himself was suprised when the decision was announced.

Those judges should have been railroaded out of town, because they jobbed Schmeling.

It was a close decision, but from what I saw it could have went either way.

13

13. The Muhammad Ali-Joe Frazier Brawl: In January of 1974, just days before their scheduled rematch, Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier sat down with Howard Cosell's ABC's Wide World of Sports to discuss and analyze their first fight. Soon, some words were exchanged, and it escalated from there.

It seems that Ali called Frazier ignorant, and Joe got up, and walked over to Ali, and then out of nowhere, Muhammad's brother shows up.

Muhammad's brothedr Rudy came over and Frazier turned to him, balling his fists. Ali thought Frazier was going to hit him, so he pushed Frazier down to protect his brother.

Originally posted by Muhammad Ali

Get down Joe!

Originally posted by Howard Cosell

Oh, look at this scene, here. Muhammad called frazier ignorant and he's really angry. Maybe it's safe to say that Ali was clowning. But Frazier is definetely serious!

When Ali and Frazier were in the same room, you know something unusual was going to happen.

12

12. Roberto Duran Low Blows Ken Buchanan: On June 26, 1972, lightweight champion Ken Buchanan took on Roberto Duran from Panama. The durable Duran was winning the fight from rounds one through twelve. In the thirteenth round, both men got into a scuffle and after the bell rang, Duran landed a hard right to Buchanan, low and he was not able to continue into the fourteenth round. He was disqualified.

That's just like Roberto Duran. Does everything his way, and doesn't care if he breaks the rules now and then.

Duran was ahead anyway, so I don't see how that was such a big thing.

Duran should have been disqualified. You don't intentionally low blow someone and then get away with it.

11

11. The Mike Tyson-Lennox Lewis Brawl: In January of 2002, Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis met for a news conference to promote a possible fight between the two. One thing led to another, and before you know it, Tyson swings, and Tyson, Lewis and everyone else is brawling.

Originally posted by Lennox Lewis

I feel someone biting my leg, and I push everyone aside and there's Tyson biting my leg!

I think somehow Tyson was trying to get out of that fight, cause he knew he had no chance.

Only Tyson would be involved in something like that. But what can you expect? You pick someone up from off the streets, then they will act like their from the streets. That's the way he is.

That was funny hearing Tyson rant and rave like that. That was some good television!

When it comes to who's number one, everyone has an opinion.
Some say it's the cat with the best stats,
other's say it's the one who did the most winning.
So we're here to bring all debates to an ending!
So stay tuned. I promise, we'll be back pretty soon.

**K-DOGG** · 10-30-2006, 05:42 PM

Good list Butterfly; but I still don't think the Jones disqualification was controversial. He hit him intentionally and deserved the dq.

**butterfly1964** · 10-30-2006, 05:55 PM

Who's Number One

Welcome back to this edition of "Who's Number 1". We're counting down the greatest controversies of all time. Here's a recap.

20

The Whitaker-Chavez Decision

19

Larry Holmes Attacks Trevor Berbick in a Parking Lot

18

Roy Jones Jr. is Disqualified Against Montell Griffin

17

Larry Holmes Says "Marciano couldn't hold my jockstrap!"

16

Muhammad Ali Says "What's my name?" to Ernie Terrel

15

Wolgast-Rivers Double Knockout

14

The Schmeling-Sharkey II Decision

13

The Muhammad Ali-Joe Frazier Brawl

12

Roberto Duran Low Blows Ken Buchanan

11

The Mike Tyson-Lennox Lewis Brawl

And the best is yet to come! Here's the second half of the list.

10

10

Nobody will ever forget that day, when they basically robbed him of his gold medal.

10. The Jones-Park decision in the 1988 Olympics: In the 1988 Olypics in Seoul, Roy Jones Jr. competed for An olympic Gold Medal against local talent Si-Hung Park. However, even though Jones battered his foe senseless, he lost the decision.

That was the worst thing I have ever seen in sports. Jones basically beat that korean all over the ring, but he was deemed the loser? I don't know how they score fights over there in Seoul, but I'm pretty sure that there's no way Park won that fight.

Even when Jones returned home to the states after, he thought he let them down, but there was a big celebration at his home town, like he actually did have the gold medal.

It shows how badly some countries want tot win. the fighter was Korean, the judges were Korean. put two and two together.

9

When you take somebody's ear off and put it in your mouth, you got biiiiiig problems!

9. Mike Tyson Bites Evander Holyfield's Ears: On June 28, 1997, heavyweight champion Evander Holyfield rematched with the man he took the title from, Mike Tyson.

In the third round, during a clinch, Tyson did something unprecedented in the sport. He rested his head on Evander's, and bit off a chunk of his right ear.

Originally posted by Mills Lane

And then I heard Holyfield yell, "He bit me! He bit me!"

Originally posted by Evander Holyfield

And I don't know, but I guess my first reaction was to bite him back!

Originally posted by Mills Lane

And then he went and did it again to the other ear!

According to Tyson, the reason why he bit him was because of alleged headbutts that cut both of his eyes. Tyson was disqualified, and his license in Nevada was suspended for one year.

Originally posted by Mike Tyson

He was butting me, and cutting me, and I guess I just wanted to get back at him.

8

8. The Louis-Walcott I Decision: On December 5, 1947, heavyweight champion Joe Louis took on Jersey Joe Walcott, from Patterson, New Jersey.

Walcott impressed the crowd, outboxing the befuddled Louis, and knocking down the champion twice. However, the judges didn't see it that way, as a split decision was awarded to Louis. Not even that but a mistake was said to be made on on of the judges card.

On Frank Forbes scorecard, he voted for Walcott to win, but a mistake was made, and it was announced that he gave it to Louis. It was a terrible mistake.

Who won the fight? Joe Walcott!

Walcott appealed to the New York Courts to overturn the decision in an investigation that went on for months, but he was eventually denied.

Louis himself thought that he lost the fight and was walking out of the ring. he had to be called back into the ring because he was so embarrassed by his performance.

That was the worst robbery in the history of boxing!

Walcott earned a rematch a year later, but was knocked out in the eleventh round.

It's sit back and have a beer time!
Relax in your chair time.
We'll be right back, like your hairline.

**butterfly1964** · 10-30-2006, 06:24 PM

You don't have to fight about this anymore!
You don't have to write about this anymore!
We've come to settle the score and end all wars,
in living room and barbershop floors
about, "Who the number one this?", and "Who's the number one that?"!
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back!

7

7

7. Emile Griffith Kills Benny "Kid" Paret: On March 24, 1962, welterweight champion Benny Paret took on Emile Griffith for the third and last time. In the twelfth round, Griffith rocked him with a vicious flurry, and still throwing punches, had his man out on his feet. However, referee Ruby Goldstein didn't stop the fight until much later in the round, and the consequence was the death of Paret.

I don't understand it. The guy was out! He was defenseless! Why didn't the referee stop the fight immediately. I never could understand it.

Paretalways had a tendency to play "possum". So maybe the referee thought Paret was trying to lure griffith in, because he did that all the time.

Griffith in the third fight by this time was seething with hate, because Paret was making fun of his ****sexuality, and so he just wanted to really beat him.

It's a risk you have to take in boxing, ring deaths do happen, it's just the idea of how willing are you to get into this sport. You have to realize that you could get killed.

I don't know what Goldstein was thinking. Paret was not moving at all.

6

6. Mike Tyson is convicted of the rape of Desiree Washington: In 1992, former heavyweight champion Mike Tyson was acused and later convicted of model Desiree Washington, even though to this day Tyson proclaims his innocence.

it's one thing to have someone convicted of rape. It's a whole other thing for a high-profile boxer like Mike Tyson to be convicted of it.

First of all, what was she doing in her hotel room?

Tyson was known for this kind of behavior before. His animalistic instincts in the ring, was demonstrated against Ms. Washington.

After Buster Douglass beat Tyson, everything started to go down hill.

Before, Tyson seemed nice. he was polite, well-spoken. But it's like he just all of a sudden changed. Now we see a different picture of Mike Tyson.

Tyson was released from prison in 1995.

5

5

5. Roberto Duran Says "No Mas": On November 25, 1980, welterweight champion roberto duran rematched with Sugar Ray Leonard. Duran had dominated in their first match, but Leonard had other plans.

Originally posted by Bert Sugar

Leonard was so humiliated in the first fight that he really wanted to get back at Roberto Duran. So in the second fight, Leonard's game plan was to jab, move, taunt, and embarras!

Leonard just mocks duran throughout the fight and sticks his head out, like he's daring Duran top hit him. And he would just move out and do the same thing. it annoyed the hell out of duran.

Originally posted by Howard Cosell

Leonard posturing. He winds up with the right, and oh he caught him with a left!

The whole fight was a plan to just drive Duran over the edge.

Originally posted by Howard Cosell

Duran troubled by the movement!

I suppose at the end of the seventh round, that Duran decided that he wanted out of this.

Originally posted by Sugar Ray Leonard

I looked over at my corner and someone yelled, "He quit, he quit!

In the eighth round, Duran said, "No Mas!", and quit the fight.

Originally posted by Thomas Hearns

I don't understand. Why quit? He still had a chance to win the fight!

Originally posted by Bert Sugar

Duran never said "No Mas". What he said could be translated into many different languages!

If being "Number One" is your life's dream occupation,
then hopefully you've got a couple of more doses of dedication.
Because the greats will tell you with no hesitation,
that you don't win it in the game, you win in the preparation. Who's Number 1?

**butterfly1964** · 10-30-2006, 06:28 PM

Who's Number 1? "Greatest Controversies"

4

4

4. Jack Johnson is Convicted of the Mann Act: In 1913, heavyweight champion Jack Johnson was convicted of the violation of the Mann Act, whereas a negro male could not transport a white woman accross state lines for immoral purposes, and he was sentenced to a year and a day in prison. The problem with that was, it was his wife.

Back then racism was the order of the day. And after Johnson beat James Jeffries, the Anti-Johnson forces thought that if he couldn't be defeated in the ring, then they would use outside circumstances in order to crush Johnson.

It was so controversial at the time because you couldn't imagine a black man in the 1910s doing this stuff. Most men would be too terrified to do the things that Johnson did, for fear of being beaten or lynched. But Johnson didn't care.

Johnson didn't do anything wrong, he was just a victim of his times, like so many other individuals.

Instead of recieving his jail sentence, Johnson fled the country.

To make matters worse, he just runs away and fights abroad. The fact that he was a heavyweight champion that was a convicted criminal on the loose made him even more controversial. Even some black leaders of the day like W.E.B. DuBois disliked him.

Five years after losing his title to Jess Willard, in 1920 Johnson returned to the states and served his time.

3

3

3. The Phantom Punch: On February 25, 1965, heavyweight champion Muhammad Ali rematched with Sonny Liston. In the first round, Ali dances rings around Liston. Then Liston lunged in with a left and Ali threw a right, and Liston went down.

Ali stood over Liston for about 5 seconds before referee Jersey Joe Walcott convinced Ali to go to a neutral corner. Liston then seemingly made an effort to get up, but fell down again. Finally, Liston was up and they continued fighting. But writer Nat Fleischer told alcott that the time keeper counted fourteen seconds that Lisaton was down, so Walcott stopped the fight after a minute and fifty-one seconds. Many people still are questioning whether a punch was even landed in the first place. Or if it did land that it would be enough to knock out a durable champion that had never been knocked out before. It is forever known as "The Phantom Punch"!

Originally posted by Jerry Izenburg

Everything was wrong about that fight. There were no accomodations in most of the streets in that town. No restaurants, hotels. it was the worst experience of covering a fight that I ever had in my life.

Ali landed a punch that Jack Johnson taught Stepin Fetchit, and that Fetchit taught Ali. It was a corkscrew punch, but Ali called it an anchor punch.

The camera angle doesn't really give you a good view, but you could see that Liston got nailed with a good punch and he went down, now whether he was knocked out is a different story.

Originally posted by Jerry Izenburg

Liston was fine, he's just on the canvas waiting for the referee to say ten to get out of there. What comes after nine, ten!

That picture of Ali standing over Liston was symbolic of things to come. It was a symbol of Ali's dominance over the heavyweight division, and of him being at the height of his powers. Ali truly was "The Greatest".

2

2. Muhammad Ali Refuses the Vietnam War Draft: In April of 1967, heavyweight champion Muhammad Ali reported to the draft board in Houston Texas to enter service in the Vietnam conflict. Three times Ali's name was called to step forward. Three times he refused.

The ramifications from that gesture was unprecedented in sports history. Ali was immediately stripped of all his titles, state boxing licenses, and his passport so he would not benefit himself by fighting abroad. Ali also was found guilty of draft dodging and sentenced to five years in prison and fined $250,000.

At that time, Ali was the most hated individual on earth. First of all, he was black. Second, he was a braggart, and third, he seemed, "unpatriotic". Three bad thing to be in the late 1960s.

This fella they call Clay or Muhammad Ali whatever he wants to call himself, is a disgrace to the nation.

I don't know anyone who would give up fortune and fame, just for a belief. Ali deserves credit for that.

Originally posted by Bert Sugar

Ali gave up millions! He gave up three and a half years of his prime, as in prime skill, prime earning, and prime exposure.

In Ali's repeal trial in April of 1971, Ali was acquitted.

Originally posted by Juan Williams

Ali had defied the patriotic precepts of the time. He lost three years of his ability. He lost three years of income. But once he paid the price, even people who thought, "This guy is just a blabbermouth, he's just a lot of hot air." Once you pay the price even people who disagree with you say, "That's my man!"

Originally posted by Bert Sugar

All this was building up for a premise for the first Ali-Frazier fight.

In sports, the most difficult task that you could ask someone to do,
is to come up with the answer to "Who's Number 2"!
You can ask the kid from Jeopardy and he wouldn't have a clue!
Because most don't care they don't care to know,
which is exactly the reason they came up with the show!
So Who's Number 1?

**butterfly1964** · 10-30-2006, 06:37 PM

Who's Number 1?: "Greatest Controversies"

Hello, butterfly1964 here and welcome again to this edition of "Who's Number 1?". In this edition we are counting down the twenty greatest controversies of all time. Before we get to number 1, here's a list of the preceeding 19.

20

The Whitaker-Chavez Decision

19

Larry Holmes Attacks Trevor Berbick in a Parking Lot

18

Roy Jones Jr. is Disqualified Against Montell Griffin

17

Larry Holmes Says "Marciano couldn't hold my jockstrap!"

16

Muhammad Ali Says "What's my name?" to Ernie Terrel

15

Wolgast-Rivers Double Knockout

14

The Schmeling-Sharkey II Decision

13

The Muhammad Ali-Joe Frazier Brawl

12

Roberto Duran Low Blows Ken Buchanan

11

The Mike Tyson-Lennox Lewis Brawl

10

The Jones-Park decision in the 1988 Olympics

9

Mike Tyson Bites Evander Holyfield's Ears

8

The Louis-Walcott I Decision

7

Emile Griffith Kills Benny "Kid" Paret

6

Mike Tyson is convicted of the rape of Desiree Washington

5

Roberto Duran Says "No Mas"

4

Jack Johnson is Convicted of the Mann Act

3

The Phantom Punch

2

Muhammad Ali Refuses the Vietnam War Draft

Controversy is juicy. And juicy controversy always leads to juicy debate. This certain incident no doubt will be talked about until the end of time. Here is the number one controversy in boxing history!

1

1

1................................................. ....

1. The Long Count: On September 22, 1927, heavyweight champion Gene Tunney rematched with former champion Jack Dempsey. Over 100,000 eager fans packed Soldiers Field in Chicago, Illinois. Their first fight was one of the biggest upsets in boxing history, with Dempsey being a heavy favorite, but in the second fight, Dempsey was still the favorite.

Originally posted by Bert Sugar

Dempsey was still the crowd favorite and the betting favorite, although there shouldn't have been a reason for it. But sometimes people don't bet with thier heads, they bet with their hearts.

However, the second fight seemed to be a repeat of the first. The first six rounds was dominated by Tunney. However, in the seventh round Dempsey pursued the champion. Dempsey countered Tunney's jab with a right and then pinned him against the ropes and landed a succession of punches, one of them being his signature left hook, and Tunney was down!

Originally posted by Bert Sugar

Dempsey during the contract signing got up and asked for something that had never been asked before. Fearing that Tunney would stand over him and beat him, he asked that a clause be put in that a fighter go to a neutral corner upon scoring a knockdown!

Dempsey's style was to stand over his opponent after flooring them, so when Tunney was down he just stood over him, not remembering at the time that the neutral corner clause was put in for that fight.

Referee Dave Barry motioned Dempsey to go to a neutral corner, but Dempsey wouldn't listen. Finally after about five seconds, Dempsey obeyed the referee, but instead of picking up the count, the ref started at one and continued on. Tunney got up at the count of nine and won the unanimous decision at the end. Many people claimed that Tunney was down for fourteen seconds, in what is known for all-time as the infamous "Long Count".

The question is could Tunney have still beat the count if not given those extra seconds? The debate goes on and on.

Originally posted by Bill Gallo

He was out! He was out! I mean when you watch him, and see him, you know crumbling there in the corner, you could tell that he would not have made it.

Originally posted by Jay Tunney

Dad always felt that he could have gotten up in time. If you watch the film, you could see that he was wide awake, just listening to the count. And Dad's legs were in phenominal shape. And that's why he was able to move, and dance, and get away from Dempsey.

Originally posted by Bert Sugar

And what nobody remembers is that in the eight round, Tunney knocks Dempsey down! And so in total Tunney won 19 of the 20 rounds between the two. But what everyone remembers is that seventh round, the "Long Count" round.

By the way, this was Jack Dempsey's last fight. He retired at the age of thirty-two because of eye problems.

In boxing, there is endless amounts of controversy. But is my list controversial? Here is the resident second guesser to make that judgement, K-DOGG.

Originally posted by K-DOGG

Overall, pretty good; but I will point out a couple of things I disagree with.

1. Whitaker-Chavez could be higher.
2. The Jones Jr. disqualification was, indeed justified.
3. What's My Name might be higher.
4. "Jock Strap" could be higher
5. "Double Knock-out" could be MUCH higher.
6. Griffith-Paret tragedy could be higher
7. Schmeling-Sharkey II could be higher as well.

Threre are a few others that I feel have more precedence than others; but this is all subjective, of course. It is your list, afterall; and a very good one.

Good job, butterfly.

That will do it for this edition of "Who's Number 1". I'll return next week to countdown times, events and athletes that have shaped our world of boxing. Until then, I'm butterfly1964, let the debating begin!

Special thanks to K-DOGG.

Butterfly Productions Inc.
� 2006

**butterfly1964** · 10-30-2006, 06:38 PM

So how did I do?

**Empac** · 10-30-2006, 08:18 PM

I think the Number 1 should be "Who shot Tupac on the night of the Mike Tyson fight :boobies: "

**sleazyfellow** · 10-30-2006, 08:55 PM

good list but some are not even boxing related, tyson/lewis press conference for one and also ali/frazier scuffle on howard cossels show, but i agree with #1, #2 should be phatom punch..and wolgast/rivers u didnt even mention the ref helped wolgast up

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