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I’m a big fan of boxingscenes Stephen Breadman Edwards and his coloumn. This week he gives his thoughts on the Clay/Ali vs Liston bouts. A fine read.
Full article here:
https://www.boxingscene.com/daily-br...s-more--154753
A few weeks ago,an article appeared noting the 50 year anniversary of Sonny Liston's death and reviewing the unanswered questions.Another described Sonny as one of the two greatest heavyweights ever(the other being Ali).That article had him in his mid 40s for the Ali fights.It also claimed that his family was kidnapped prior to the Ali rematch to guarantee that he'd take a dive.Then forums appeared seeming to endlessly debate that controversial fight.
Maybe this topic has been overdone,though a few items from the last column got my attention. First Liston going down in the first round seemed unbelievable, considering how well he took blows from Cleveland Williams a few years earlier. But,as you've pointed out, Ali won the psychological war in the first fight. Some saw the punch in Lewiston as a blow to the temple.That nerve center blow ,not seen coming,could have been more effective than Williams bombs to Sonny's granite chin.Your thoughts are preferred to the forum chatter.
Someone asked about training to handle being hurt.Did Ali have this down to a science?He once wrote about getting buzzed,entering that odd 'half dream'zone, taking it in stride and putting on an act.One was telling Foreman he hit like a 'sissy',even though he'd been buzzed.When he took a good right from Bob Foster,he did an exaggerated wobbly dance ;it was obviously an act and he KOd Foster moments later.A few years later,he did the same thing after a Shaver's right.He WAS hurt,but that same act seemed to cause Earnie to hesitate while Ali's head cleared.Of course,Ali's granite chin helped.
Does the 'cat eyes' include peripheral vision? I'd read that Ali could go to his corner after a round and tell his corner what people were doing at ringside,though he kept his eyes on his opponent at all times (maybe not so much at the first Cooper fight). Looking back this may be TOO long.Happy New Year & thanks for each Saturday's great reads.
Terry of Warren, Pa.
Bread’s Response: A few years back I met a man by the name of Paul Gallender at Russell Peltz’s office here in Philadelphia. Gallender I hope I spelled that correctly, was in town promoting a book he wrote on Sonny Liston. We talked about Liston and in fact at the African American Museum later that night, they were doing an Expo on Liston and the book. It was very cool. I read the book and even sent a copy to some important people. Gallender believed that Liston was much older than his stated age and he also believed that Liston fought under an assumed name earlier in life. It was very interesting. I don’t want to argue facts. But I will state them. Then I will insert my opinion.
Sonny Liston was 100% mob connected. How connected and how deep, who knows. But that’s a fact. In my opinion the 1st fight was 100% legit. Here is why. Liston tried to ko Ali after the substance was rubbed in Ali’s eye. Ali almost quit because he couldn’t see. Now ask yourself why would a fighter and/or his team put a solution on his body that will burn the eyes of the opponent, try to ko the opponent for the fight not to be REAL. That to me shows they wanted to WIN. I know you brought up the rematch but there are some people who think both fights were FIXED. I don’t believe that.
In the rematch I do have a gut feeling something su****ious happened. I have actually researched this. I agree with some of Gallender’s points but not all. What I think happened was Liston did in fact get caught by a nice jolting right hand. That punch was legit. In slow mo you can see it landed and it shocked him. So the Phantom Punch moniker is not accurate. That punch LANDED.
The issue for me is could he have gotten up. YES I believe he could have. I think Liston acted a little bit after he was buzzed and the he didn’t do a great job of acting. I’ve seen several fighters do this and it gets unnoticed. A few years back two GGG opponents did this. They were hurt. But they “acted” more hurt than they really were in order to get the fight stopped. I won’t name them because this is just my opinion and I won’t disrespect anyone. But my eyes and guts don’t lie to me. Back to Liston. Here is where the FIX conspiracy comes in at.
I don’t know if his family was kidnapped. I don’t know if he was told to take a DIVE. I don’t know if someone bet on him to lose and he did what he had to do. But I do believe he could have gotten up if he wanted to. But the referee Jersey Joe Walcott, lost control of the action and Liston had to lay down for too long and it didn’t look real. I also believe whatever the reasons were that Liston did NOT get up, Ali was NOT in on it. He didn’t have to be. He was better. He had already soundly beat him. And he was too prideful to be in on that.
Ali was just as shocked as anyone that Liston went down and didn’t get up. Ali had Liston’s ticket and he knew it from their 1st fight. You can go over being hurt in the gym, millions of times. I do think it will factor in. Tommy Hearns learned later in his career how to hold and it helped him to never get stopped over middleweight. But Ali had COPING skills. I don’t know if anyone taught him that or was it something he was born with. But he had it. He just knew how to COPE with being hurt. He had WILL power. He refused to allow him to be stopped. He was wired to overcome adversity. THE BOXING RING is a truth machine. Whatever is in you will come out of you. Ali dealt with adversity in and out of the ring. He was resilient. All of these things factor in as far as getting stopped. Unless you are knocked out COLD with a shot, there is usually a moment or two where you can escape the KO. But only special fighters in that department can consistently overcome that. It’s a combination of many things. It’s composure. It’s will power. It’s having a chin.
Everyone talks about Juan Manuel Marquez’s combination punching but his best quality is this. He gets dropped and hurt more than any fighter I have ever seen who has NEVER been stopped. Something clicks in Marquez and he refuses to be STOPPED. What’s even more special is he DOES NOT clinch when he’s hurt. He actually fights his way through the adversity. He’s on Ali’s level in this one department.
No that’s not CAT EYES you speak of. That’s Master AWARENESS. Ali was able to do more than one thing at a time. Some people have freak concentration like that. Floyd Mayweather is like that. There was a fight where he was fighting and he heard the announcers talking about football and he screams I like Michael Vick. He didn’t miss a beat in the ring. That AWARENESS also helps Ali and Floyd not get clipped. Often times getting clipped comes down to losing track of a certain punch. For the most part they don’t and when they do their CHINS hold up. Great write in but try to make them smaller next time.
Maybe this topic has been overdone,though a few items from the last column got my attention. First Liston going down in the first round seemed unbelievable, considering how well he took blows from Cleveland Williams a few years earlier. But,as you've pointed out, Ali won the psychological war in the first fight. Some saw the punch in Lewiston as a blow to the temple.That nerve center blow ,not seen coming,could have been more effective than Williams bombs to Sonny's granite chin.Your thoughts are preferred to the forum chatter.
Someone asked about training to handle being hurt.Did Ali have this down to a science?He once wrote about getting buzzed,entering that odd 'half dream'zone, taking it in stride and putting on an act.One was telling Foreman he hit like a 'sissy',even though he'd been buzzed.When he took a good right from Bob Foster,he did an exaggerated wobbly dance ;it was obviously an act and he KOd Foster moments later.A few years later,he did the same thing after a Shaver's right.He WAS hurt,but that same act seemed to cause Earnie to hesitate while Ali's head cleared.Of course,Ali's granite chin helped.
Does the 'cat eyes' include peripheral vision? I'd read that Ali could go to his corner after a round and tell his corner what people were doing at ringside,though he kept his eyes on his opponent at all times (maybe not so much at the first Cooper fight). Looking back this may be TOO long.Happy New Year & thanks for each Saturday's great reads.
Terry of Warren, Pa.
Bread’s Response: A few years back I met a man by the name of Paul Gallender at Russell Peltz’s office here in Philadelphia. Gallender I hope I spelled that correctly, was in town promoting a book he wrote on Sonny Liston. We talked about Liston and in fact at the African American Museum later that night, they were doing an Expo on Liston and the book. It was very cool. I read the book and even sent a copy to some important people. Gallender believed that Liston was much older than his stated age and he also believed that Liston fought under an assumed name earlier in life. It was very interesting. I don’t want to argue facts. But I will state them. Then I will insert my opinion.
Sonny Liston was 100% mob connected. How connected and how deep, who knows. But that’s a fact. In my opinion the 1st fight was 100% legit. Here is why. Liston tried to ko Ali after the substance was rubbed in Ali’s eye. Ali almost quit because he couldn’t see. Now ask yourself why would a fighter and/or his team put a solution on his body that will burn the eyes of the opponent, try to ko the opponent for the fight not to be REAL. That to me shows they wanted to WIN. I know you brought up the rematch but there are some people who think both fights were FIXED. I don’t believe that.
In the rematch I do have a gut feeling something su****ious happened. I have actually researched this. I agree with some of Gallender’s points but not all. What I think happened was Liston did in fact get caught by a nice jolting right hand. That punch was legit. In slow mo you can see it landed and it shocked him. So the Phantom Punch moniker is not accurate. That punch LANDED.
The issue for me is could he have gotten up. YES I believe he could have. I think Liston acted a little bit after he was buzzed and the he didn’t do a great job of acting. I’ve seen several fighters do this and it gets unnoticed. A few years back two GGG opponents did this. They were hurt. But they “acted” more hurt than they really were in order to get the fight stopped. I won’t name them because this is just my opinion and I won’t disrespect anyone. But my eyes and guts don’t lie to me. Back to Liston. Here is where the FIX conspiracy comes in at.
I don’t know if his family was kidnapped. I don’t know if he was told to take a DIVE. I don’t know if someone bet on him to lose and he did what he had to do. But I do believe he could have gotten up if he wanted to. But the referee Jersey Joe Walcott, lost control of the action and Liston had to lay down for too long and it didn’t look real. I also believe whatever the reasons were that Liston did NOT get up, Ali was NOT in on it. He didn’t have to be. He was better. He had already soundly beat him. And he was too prideful to be in on that.
Ali was just as shocked as anyone that Liston went down and didn’t get up. Ali had Liston’s ticket and he knew it from their 1st fight. You can go over being hurt in the gym, millions of times. I do think it will factor in. Tommy Hearns learned later in his career how to hold and it helped him to never get stopped over middleweight. But Ali had COPING skills. I don’t know if anyone taught him that or was it something he was born with. But he had it. He just knew how to COPE with being hurt. He had WILL power. He refused to allow him to be stopped. He was wired to overcome adversity. THE BOXING RING is a truth machine. Whatever is in you will come out of you. Ali dealt with adversity in and out of the ring. He was resilient. All of these things factor in as far as getting stopped. Unless you are knocked out COLD with a shot, there is usually a moment or two where you can escape the KO. But only special fighters in that department can consistently overcome that. It’s a combination of many things. It’s composure. It’s will power. It’s having a chin.
Everyone talks about Juan Manuel Marquez’s combination punching but his best quality is this. He gets dropped and hurt more than any fighter I have ever seen who has NEVER been stopped. Something clicks in Marquez and he refuses to be STOPPED. What’s even more special is he DOES NOT clinch when he’s hurt. He actually fights his way through the adversity. He’s on Ali’s level in this one department.
No that’s not CAT EYES you speak of. That’s Master AWARENESS. Ali was able to do more than one thing at a time. Some people have freak concentration like that. Floyd Mayweather is like that. There was a fight where he was fighting and he heard the announcers talking about football and he screams I like Michael Vick. He didn’t miss a beat in the ring. That AWARENESS also helps Ali and Floyd not get clipped. Often times getting clipped comes down to losing track of a certain punch. For the most part they don’t and when they do their CHINS hold up. Great write in but try to make them smaller next time.
https://www.boxingscene.com/daily-br...s-more--154753
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