Enclosed are my top 15 ranked heavyweights by 20-year intervals. The criteria for the

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  • Dr. Z
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    #1

    Enclosed are my top 15 ranked heavyweights by 20-year intervals. The criteria for the

    Enclosed are my top 15 ranked heavyweights by 20-year intervals. The criteria for the ranking as follows.

    1 ) Head to head vs. the field, which is strictly my personal opinion. 40%

    2 ) Resume of wins and losses, excluding losses that happened when a fighter was passed their prime. 30%

    3 ) The distinction of the fighter as champion by beating top contenders in title matches if applicable. 20%

    4 ) Historians input, which matters most to fighters, not on film. 10%
    I will try to list each fighter only once, placing him closest to his prime years. I am also open to shifting the ratings a bit, as this is the 1st draft. So constructive feedback with explanations is most welcome.

    1885-1905 Pioneer era: The transitional time between bare knuckles and London Prize-ring rules to Queensberry rules.

    1.Jeffries
    2.Fitzsimmons
    3A. Jackson - No film in the ring, only walking around.
    3B. Corbett
    5. Sullivan - Mock sparring and hitting a bag only
    6. Sharkey
    7. Slavin - No film
    8. Ruhlin
    9. Goddard - No film
    10. Griffin - No film
    11. Maher - Was filmed, never saw him
    12. Choynski - filmed in sparring only
    13. Hart - No film on
    14. McCoy - Was filmed in the ring, spars with Corbett
    15. O’Brien


    1906-1925 Black and white filmed era:

    1. Dempsey
    2. Tunney
    3. J Johnson
    4. Langford
    5. Wills
    6. Jeanette
    7. McVey
    8. Willard
    9. Greb - Training clips only
    10. Gibbons
    11. Burns
    12. Miske - No film on, I think
    13. Godfrey
    14. Norfolk
    15. Smith

    1926-1945 Great Depression to World War II: An era where war and the great depression in the USA hurt boxing. I have trouble with the bottom of this list, as the depth is rather thin.

    1. Louis
    2. Charles
    3. Schmeling
    4. M Baer
    5. Carnera
    6. Godfrey
    7. J Sharkey
    8. Bivins
    9. Schaff
    10. Conn
    11. *****
    12. Pastor
    13. Farr
    14. Loughran
    15. Galento

    1946-1965 Golden age era:

    1. Liston
    2. Marciano
    3. Patterson
    4. Walcott
    5. Charles
    6. Johansson
    7. Moore
    8. Ray - No film on, only a radio broadcast
    9. Terrell
    10. Machen
    11. Folley
    12. Williams
    13. H. Johnson
    14. Valdes
    15. D Jones



    1966-1985: TV expansion to Cable and PPV: This era is loaded with talent, great fights an some memorable upsets.

    1. Ali
    2. Holmes
    3. Foreman
    4. Frazier
    5. Norton
    6. Witherspoon
    7. Thomas
    8. Quarry
    9. Page
    10. Coetzee
    11. Shavers
    12. Lyle
    13. Cooney
    14. Young
    15. Weaver


    1986-2003: 12 round era and super heavyweight era. This era had tremendous depth and a lot of talent.

    1. Lewis
    2. Holyfield
    3. Tyson
    4. Bowe
    5. Ibeabuchi
    6.Byrd
    7. Moorer
    8. Mercer
    9. Douglas
    10. Tua
    11. Morrison
    12. Bruno
    13. Rhaman
    14. Ruiz
    15. McCall




    2004-2024 – Eastern European dominance era. While this era has 4 years left, there has been a shift. Once the iron curtain in Eastern Europe fell both the amateur and professional ranks have been dominated by Eastern Europeans. Only 4 Americans made the top 15.. Since many of the below fighters career’s are over, and future talent in the amateurs will arrive, this list will likely look very different come 2026. It is possible young pros such as Hrgovic or an older pro such as Usyk will rate in the next 4 years. Hopefully, we will all be here to debate it!

    1A. V Klitschko
    1B. W Kltischko
    3. Povetkin
    4. Joshua* Still active
    5. Fury* Still active
    6. Chagaev
    7. Sanders
    8. Ibragimov
    9. Wilder * Still active
    10. Haye
    11. Adamek
    12. Chambers
    13. Brewster
    14. Peter
    15. Valuev
    Last edited by Dr. Z; 12-15-2020, 06:09 PM.
  • QueensburyRules
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    #2
    Originally posted by Dr. Z
    Enclosed are my top 15 ranked heavyweights by 20-year intervals. The criteria for the ranking as follows.

    1 ) Head to head vs. the field, which is strictly my personal opinion. 40%

    2 ) Resume of wins and losses, excluding losses that happened when a fighter was passed their prime. 30%

    3 ) The distinction of the fighter as champion by beating top contenders in title matches if applicable. 20%

    4 ) Historians input, which matters most to fighters, not on film. 10%
    I will try to list each fighter only once, placing him closest to his prime years. I am also open to shifting the ratings a bit, as this is the 1st draft. So constructive feedback with explanations is most welcome.

    1885-1905 Pioneer era: The transitional time between bare knuckles and London Prize-ring rules to Queensberry rules.

    1.Jeffries
    2.Fitzsimmons
    3A. Jackson
    3B. Corbett
    5. Sullivan
    6. Sharkey
    7. Slavin
    8. Ruhlin
    9. Goddard
    10. Griffin
    11. Maher
    12. Choynski
    13. Hart
    14. McCoy
    15. O’Brien


    1906-1925 Black and white filmed era:

    1. Dempsey
    2. Tunney
    3. J Johnson
    4. Langford
    5. Wills
    6. Jeanette
    7. McVey
    8. Willard
    9. Greb
    10. Gibbons
    11. Burns
    12. Miske
    13. Godfrey
    14. Norfolk
    15. Smith

    1926-1945 Great Depression to World War II: An era where war and the great depression in the USA hurt boxing. I have trouble with the bottom of this list, as the depth is rather thin.

    1. Louis
    2. Charles
    3. Schmeling
    4. M Baer
    5. Carnera
    6. Godfrey
    7. Moore
    8. Bivins
    9. Schaff
    10. Conn
    11. *****
    12. Pastor
    13. Farr
    14. Loughran
    15. Galento

    1946-1965 Golden age era:

    1. Liston
    2. Marciano
    3. Patterson
    4. Walcott
    5. Johansson
    6. Ray
    7. Terrell
    8. Machen
    9. Folley
    10. Williams
    11. H. Johnson
    12. Valdes
    13. D Jones
    14. Chuvalo
    15. Layne



    1966-1985: TV expansion to Cable and PPV: This era is loaded with talent.

    1. Ali
    2. Holmes
    3. Foreman
    4. Frazier
    5. Norton
    6. Witherspoon
    7. Thomas
    8. Quarry
    9. Page
    10. Coetzee
    11. Shavers
    12. Lyle
    13. C00ney
    14. Young
    15. Weaver


    1986-2003: 12 round era and super heavyweight era. This era had tremendous depth and a lot of talent.

    1. Lewis
    2. Holyfield
    3. Tyson
    4. Bowe
    5. Ibeabuchi
    6.Byrd
    7. Moorer
    8. Mercer
    9. Douglas
    10. Tua
    11. Morrison
    12. Bruno
    13. Rhaman
    14. Ruiz
    15. McCall




    2004-2024 – Eastern European dominance era. While this era is only half over, the nations producing the top talent has shifted. Once the iron curtain in Eastern Europe fell both the amateur and professional ranks have been dominated by Eastern Europeans. Only 2 Americans made the top ten. Since many of the below fighters career’s are over, and future talent in the amateurs will arrive, this list will likely look very different after the Klitshcko’s come 2026. It is possible young pros such as Joshua will rate in the next 4 years. Hopefully, we will all be here to debate it!

    1A. V Klitschko
    1B. W Kltischko
    3. Povetkin
    4. Joshua* Still active
    5. Fury* Still active
    6. Chagaev
    7. Sanders
    8. Ibragimov
    9. Wilder * Still active
    10. Haye
    11. Adamek
    12. Chambers
    13. Brewster
    14. Peter
    15. Valuev


    *** If Pulev beats Joshua, he's on the list ***
    - -A bit baseball sabermetrics with a blizzard of supposed baseball experts proposing nonsensical questions and then making up nonsensical convoluted majic formulaes to answer their nonsense.

    I'll just point out your obvious F- picks.

    Rocky over Sonny by a huge margin and the same with Big George more so over Lar who has a title record of 0-6 against standing title holders having won their titles in the ring, a single orchestrated belt holder in a multi title era.

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    • Dr. Z
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      #3
      Originally posted by QueensburyRules
      - -A bit baseball sabermetrics with a blizzard of supposed baseball experts proposing nonsensical questions and then making up nonsensical convoluted majic formulaes to answer their nonsense.

      I'll just point out your obvious F- picks.

      Rocky over Sonny by a huge margin and the same with Big George more so over Lar who has a title record of 0-6 against standing title holders having won their titles in the ring, a single orchestrated belt holder in a multi title era.
      Did you read my criteria?

      The difference between 1 and 2 is close. Even Marciano said he would not relish sharing the same ring with Liston.

      I'm not sure who is Lar, but if you mean Holmes, Foreman ducked him for three decades and Holmes has a MUCH better record as champion.

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      • travestyny
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        #4
        Whether we agree or not, it's a matter of opinion to some degree. At least you put in the work and were willing to share. Salute.

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        • Marchegiano
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          #5
          I've been under the impression Corbett beat Jackson. The story as I know it has Jackson being favored but Corbett looked better in the actual fight. Corbett broke his ribs? I'll do some reading by and by but if you've a favored source for that fight I'd appreciate knowing it.

          Dempsey I have spoken to in active threads, either you care to address that stuff or you don't, no point in repeating

          Tunney I hardly see as a HW. He's not Fitzs, he did not fight at HW and do well for a decent period, he doesn't even have much HW resume given his best win is suspect - long count. Tunney is a p4p atg, a lhw atg, but just a champion at HW.

          Burns is a top five, y'all crazy as hell Norfolk is a top ten.

          Battling over Miske

          I'd have Godfrey equal Primo given the fixes. Both fought loads of fixed fights or at least suspected to be fixed, Primo got favors while Godfrey got cuffs. Leaving them both hard to judge. Lots of times in Primo's case I think "But Carnera didn't need help" and lots of time in George's case he puts on a display that lets you know he could have won, then DQs himself to satisfy the fix.

          Liston over Marciano? Y'all got a size issue or something. Justify that ****. To be blunt, worst choice I've seen yet. I don't know what Sonny did to outrank most of that list, but, Rocky too? Man, that's nuts. Marciano dominated the era, Liston lost it, enough said.

          How Valdes makes the list but the Valdes stopper who stole Valdes' Marciano fight doesn't. Charles should be there too. Marciano, Charles, Walcott, Patterson, Moore, Liston, then Johann. ****ing Layne and no Charlies or Moore? crazy. Also Matthews, ****ell, and LaStarza are all better than fair such as ****ing Rex Layne or Eddie Machen

          66-85 I have nothing to say, which is saying loads here. Well done sir, I agree

          Present(more present) rankings, Pov should be about where Haye is. His resume looks great until you time it out. Ducked Wlad for a full decade, fought Wlad's leftovers to maintain rank and give the illusion of fighting top guys, only 2-1 against unbeaten fighters in an era where everyone has an 0. 0-2 in title fights.

          Guys who started out after Povetkin fought for the title before Povetkin without having to fight Povetkin. Not one, not two, a bunch. There is one way to not fight the rising top contender until after the champion beats them and it's called avoidance. That **** wasn't by chance.

          Whether or not you agree about Wilder, Pov got himself out of a Wlad fight, no fault of his doe, a Wilder fight, no fault of his doe, and a Stiverne fight, no fault of his doe.

          Justify Pov. Justify Liston.

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          • The Old LefHook
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            #6
            The lists are reasonable, I believe.

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            • Dr. Z
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              #7
              Originally posted by Marchegiano
              I've been under the impression Corbett beat Jackson. The story as I know it has Jackson being favored but Corbett looked better in the actual fight. Corbett broke his ribs? I'll do some reading by and by but if you've a favored source for that fight I'd appreciate knowing it.

              Dempsey I have spoken to in active threads, either you care to address that stuff or you don't, no point in repeating

              Tunney I hardly see as a HW. He's not Fitzs, he did not fight at HW and do well for a decent period, he doesn't even have much HW resume given his best win is suspect - long count. Tunney is a p4p atg, a lhw atg, but just a champion at HW.

              Burns is a top five, y'all crazy as hell Norfolk is a top ten.

              Battling over Miske

              I'd have Godfrey equal Primo given the fixes. Both fought loads of fixed fights or at least suspected to be fixed, Primo got favors while Godfrey got cuffs. Leaving them both hard to judge. Lots of times in Primo's case I think "But Carnera didn't need help" and lots of time in George's case he puts on a display that lets you know he could have won, then DQs himself to satisfy the fix.

              Liston over Marciano? Y'all got a size issue or something. Justify that ****. To be blunt, worst choice I've seen yet. I don't know what Sonny did to outrank most of that list, but, Rocky too? Man, that's nuts. Marciano dominated the era, Liston lost it, enough said.

              How Valdes makes the list but the Valdes stopper who stole Valdes' Marciano fight doesn't. Charles should be there too. Marciano, Charles, Walcott, Patterson, Moore, Liston, then Johann. ****ing Layne and no Charlies or Moore? crazy. Also Matthews, ****ell, and LaStarza are all better than fair such as ****ing Rex Layne or Eddie Machen

              66-85 I have nothing to say, which is saying loads here. Well done sir, I agree

              Present(more present) rankings, Pov should be about where Haye is. His resume looks great until you time it out. Ducked Wlad for a full decade, fought Wlad's leftovers to maintain rank and give the illusion of fighting top guys, only 2-1 against unbeaten fighters in an era where everyone has an 0. 0-2 in title fights.

              Guys who started out after Povetkin fought for the title before Povetkin without having to fight Povetkin. Not one, not two, a bunch. There is one way to not fight the rising top contender until after the champion beats them and it's called avoidance. That **** wasn't by chance.

              Whether or not you agree about Wilder, Pov got himself out of a Wlad fight, no fault of his doe, a Wilder fight, no fault of his doe, and a Stiverne fight, no fault of his doe.

              Justify Pov. Justify Liston.
              With over 100 names, you're going to to disagree some.

              Why Tunney?

              Tunney won 17 or 20 rounds vs Dempsey and floored him. If these were 15 rounds fights, he knocked Dempsey out who needed assistance to find Tunney to shake his hand after the fight ended. Tunney wanted a 3rd fight by the way, Dempsey said not thank you. Tunney was looking at the ref much earlier than 10 and IMO could have got up just the same. He showed fine legs, when he did get up.

              Tunney got the better of Greb, who's better than anyone Dempsey beat. Indeed Greb beat the same opposition more impressively.

              Burns beat Marvin Hart and who? His title run was a very weak one. Not top 5 in his timeline for me.

              Liston over Marciano by one spot in no big deal. Marciano fought no body like Liston at all. The difference in size and skills is apparent on film.

              I think I forgot to list Charles, good catch.

              Joshua loss to Andy Ruiz jr, and trouble with a much older Povetkin leads me to believe if Povetkin was a few years younger for that fight, he beats him.
              Last edited by Dr. Z; 12-06-2020, 04:40 PM.

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              • Marchegiano
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                #8
                Originally posted by Dr. Z
                With over 100 names, you're going to to disagree some.

                Why Tunney?

                Tunney won 17 or 20 rounds vs Dempsey and floored him. If these were 15 rounds fights, he knocked Dempsey out who needed assistance to find Tunney to shake his hand after the fight ended. Tunney wanted a 3rd fight by the way, Dempsey said not thank you. Tunney was looking at the ref much earlier than 10 and IMO could have got up just the same. He showed fine legs, when he did get up.

                Tunney got the better of Greb, who's better than anyone Dempsey beat. Indeed Greb beat the same opposition more impressively.

                Burns beat Marvin Hart and who? His title run was a very weak one. Not top 5 in his timeline for me.

                Liston over Marciano by one spot in no big deal. Marciano fought no body like Liston at all. The difference in size and skills is apparent on film.

                I think I forgot to list Charles, good catch.

                Joshua loss to Andy Ruiz jr, and trouble with a much older Povetkin leads me to believe if Povetkin was a few years younger for that fight, he beats him.
                No doubt bud, I was surprised there wasn't more I could gripe at actually.

                To the rest, fine enough answers. I'd argue more on Pov but I don't want to derail your thread.

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                • QueensburyRules
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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Dr. Z
                  Did you read my criteria?

                  The difference between 1 and 2 is close. Even Marciano said he would not relish sharing the same ring with Liston.

                  I'm not sure who is Lar, but if you mean Holmes, Foreman ducked him for three decades and Holmes has a MUCH better record as champion.
                  - -How did George duck Lar when he was never a ranked fighter when George was active.

                  All this extraneous monkey motion in your thinking is frying your intellect.

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                  • QueensburyRules
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                    #10
                    Originally posted by Dr. Z
                    With over 100 names, you're going to to disagree some.

                    Why Tunney?

                    Tunney won 17 or 20 rounds vs Dempsey and floored him. If these were 15 rounds fights, he knocked Dempsey out who needed assistance to find Tunney to shake his hand after the fight ended. Tunney wanted a 3rd fight by the way, Dempsey said not thank you. Tunney was looking at the ref much earlier than 10 and IMO could have got up just the same. He showed fine legs, when he did get up.

                    Tunney got the better of Greb, who's better than anyone Dempsey beat. Indeed Greb beat the same opposition more impressively.

                    Burns beat Marvin Hart and who? His title run was a very weak one. Not top 5 in his timeline for me.

                    Liston over Marciano by one spot in no big deal. Marciano fought no body like Liston at all. The difference in size and skills is apparent on film.

                    I think I forgot to list Charles, good catch.

                    Joshua loss to Andy Ruiz jr, and trouble with a much older Povetkin leads me to believe if Povetkin was a few years younger for that fight, he beats him.
                    - -You have the Jack/Gene scorecards is it?

                    Rich, and you have the full fight footage too?

                    Wow, you sound like an expert!

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