Who would you say impacated boxing more Dempsey or Jack Johnson?

[GhostofDempsey]

I thought I just did throw Dempsey under the bus!

I don't believe the loaded gloves story; I do believe the involvement with prostitution.

Johnson wasn't a "poor" performer, I said he repeatedly appeared unprepared and disinterested for his performances. The French crowd, after giving ample opportunity to step up, got tired of being fleeced by a con artist who wasn't trying. There is a difference.

There is not one reputable source of Dempsey beating his wife and breaking her jaw. The loaded wraps accusation has been debunked. Dempsey did nothing illegal or out of the ordinary as most fighters of the day. Members of Willard's corner were present for his hands being wrapped, as were about a dozen or so reporters. His gloves were inspected and each fighter put them on in the ring in the presence of ref and the opposing corner. The initial accusation was plaster of Paris which was debunked and proven to be a lie, then the goal post got moved to some "magic" bicycle tape that was not illegal and used by most fighters of the day. If Willard's corner thought there was something sketchy going on before, during and after the fight they would have spoken up, they inspected Dempsey's wraps and gloves thoroughly. That jackass you're debating with won't concede. He loves to derail every Dempsey thread (or hijack ones that aren't about him) with his file of sources he has stored just for the occasion. He'll ignore testimony from every sports writer and people who were there. At some point you have to cut your loses and ignore him or he'll keep repeating himself like a mental patient.

Johnson fans are just salty because Willard KO'd Johnson (who lied about taking a dive and then recanted his story), and Dempsey made easy work of Willard.

[travestyny]

OK three things T

1. I want to read the letters (not claiming they don't exist; this is not a challenge, they just sounds interesting).

2. I don't see why you keep referring to later interviews (NYT 1964) and later written biographies (Fleischer) as proof that anything was actually said in 1920. That's not proof that the statements are primary to 1920. RE FLEISCHER: You and I always disagree on this, but I view Fleischer as a sycophant and a liar and quotes from him are meaningless/useless in trying to discern the truth on any topic. Just a self aggrandizing old man who should have kept his mouth shut in Lewiston.

3. The third one is complicated. The way this seems to be playing out -- bicycle tape not plaster; Willard's people watching Dempsey's hands being wrapped, photos of what Dempsey hands looked like, Dempsey sitting in the ring in front of everyone for a long period of time with his hands wrapped and no one reacting; the fighters gloves being put on their hands in the ring in front of everyone . . . and on and on -- with all this behavior, bicycle tape or no bicycle tape, why are we suppose to believe that there was somehow cheating going on when it seems everyone involved must have seen his hands/wraps and accepted them? Doesn't the term "loaded gloves" imply breaking the rules? The way you (and De Forest) tell the story they don't seem to have broken any rules. So "bicycle tape or no bicycle tape" why do you call it "loaded gloves"?

I still say the litmus test is to just look at Dempsey's hands in the photo I posted, they do not look like loaded wraps just well wrapped!

Hey I am out for the day so I won't be able to reply until nite. Really would love to read the letter though. Take care and have a great day..

No problem, brotha. I don't want to hijack this thread any further so I'll post the letters in a new thread, and if you want to continue the discussion there, we can. I'll try to respond to this post there.

Enjoy your day, bro.

[Dubblechin]

Jack Dempsey's reign had a greater impact on the sport itself than Johnson's.

The impact Johnson had primarily came outside the ring and in the United States. But Johnson's title fights took place when the sport itself was smaller. His fights took place in pastures where they'd set up a ring, or in fairly small venues, or in states where few people even lived because boxing was banned in many states. At most, there might be a couple thousand fans in attendance. Sometimes not even that many. The purses were much smaller. He made so few defenses because often he couldn't get people to pay him his minimum purse (which was like $30,000). By far, the biggest fight of his career - the biggest fight in the sport's history to that point - was against Jeffries. I believe 15,000 people attended. But that was an outlier.

Dempsey, on the other hand, became a global sports star. A film star. His fights set records for prize money. His fights set attendance records and live gates in major cities ... not pastures (the first Dempsey-Tunney fight drew 120,000 people. The second drew 104,000.) And he didn't make a lot of title defenses because he was making millions acting in movie serials. He also helped make boxing the number-one sport in the country, if not the world, in the 1920s.

The leap the sport took while Dempsey was heavyweight champ was enormous.

[travestyny]

There is not one reputable source of Dempsey beating his wife and breaking her jaw. The loaded wraps accusation has been debunked. Dempsey did nothing illegal or out of the ordinary as most fighters of the day. Members of Willard's corner were present for his hands being wrapped, as were about a dozen or so reporters. His gloves were inspected and each fighter put them on in the ring in the presence of ref and the opposing corner. The initial accusation was plaster of Paris which was debunked and proven to be a lie, then the goal post got moved to some "magic" bicycle tape that was not illegal and used by most fighters of the day. If Willard's corner thought there was something sketchy going on before, during and after the fight they would have spoken up, they inspected Dempsey's wraps and gloves thoroughly. That jackass you're debating with won't concede. He loves to derail every Dempsey thread (or hijack ones that aren't about him) with his file of sources he has stored just for the occasion. He'll ignore testimony from every sports writer and people who were there. At some point you have to cut your loses and ignore him or he'll keep repeating himself like a mental patient.

Johnson fans are just salty because Willard KO'd Johnson (who lied about taking a dive and then recanted his story), and Dempsey made easy work of Willard.

Prove Jimmy Deforest lied. I called you out in the original thread, and you were too chicken shlt to show up


If it were debunked, you need to tell Joe Vila, Arthur Daley, Paul Beston, Carlos Acevedo, Charles Samuel, and Randy Warren Roberts that, because they are/were out there saying that's most likely what happened. Never denied by Dempsey! I know it hurts your soul. Too bad

[GhostofDempsey]

Prove Jimmy Deforest lied. I called you out in the original thread, and you were too chicken shlt to show up


If it were debunked, you need to tell Joe Vila, Arthur Daley, Paul Beston, Carlos Acevedo, Charles Samuel, and Randy Warren Roberts that, because they are/were out there saying that's most likely what happened. Never denied by Dempsey! I know it hurts your soul. Too bad

Did you not get enough attention in your original Deforrest thread? Still beating the same old drum huh? Billeau owned your ass in this one, surprised you can still sit without wincing in pain. We all know your agenda here. You're a troll and a sore loser. Keep "winning", LOL.

https://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=774782&highlight=deforest&page=11

[travestyny]

Did you not get enough attention in your original Deforrest thread? Still beating the same old drum huh? Billeau owned your ass in this one, surprised you can still sit without wincing in pain. We all know your agenda here. You're a troll and a sore loser. Keep "winning", LOL.

https://www.boxingscene.com/forums/s...forest&page=11

Billeau owned me? If you say so. What we do know is that you didn't! You wouldn't even show up.

I'm happy you linked to it, though. Everyone can see that nothing was debunked. You're just triggered because you can't handle that what he did is out in the open and plenty of respectable journalists and writers have acknowledged it....because they aren't butthurt fans like you are.

But feel free to show us where the ownage is. I can't spot it there. In fact, I see where one member here got ran out of the thread, one member acknowledge that what I said made sense, and you....never showed up because you had no defense.

Does it hurt your feelings? Well you can always try to prove it wrong. Too bad you won't get anywhere


By the way, I guess you missed Billeau's apology for the false accusation. You can read it right here if you'd like

yes you are correct the sheer volume of posts was such I did not read them. Under those conditions if you were respectful in so dealing, I will take your word for it. I apologize if you made such a gesture and I was not aware of it, I will take your word for it that you did.

[travestyny]

Did you not get enough attention in your original Deforrest thread?

Let me grab a bit more of your attention. I just want you to tell us how much this hurts your soul and makes you cry at night



Arthur Daley— Pulitzer Prize winner for reporting and commentary--outstanding coverage and commentary on the world of sports; The National Sportscasters and Sportswriters Association "Sportswriter of the Year.”

The mention of “aluminum pads” would seem to indicate that there must have been some su****ion even then of destructive foreign substances inside Dempsey's gloves. The discredited Kearns tells a discredited story with his plaster of paris. But the DeForest tale of “a certain kind of adhesive tape” sounds both plausible and logical.
https://www.nytimes.com/1964/02/09/s...the-times.html

Paul Beston—Author of The Boxing Kings: When American Heavyweights Ruled the Ring.

[All the evidence points to a more mundane explanation: Dempsey wore handwraps wound with a tightening adhesive, likened to bicycle tape—more than sufficient to make his hands feel like rocks. The tape was not illegal at the time, and the testimony of multiple parties suggests that Willard’s people made no objection to it.

https://www.paulbeston.com/blog/the-heavyweight-bookshelf-jack-dempsey

Paul Beston Again:

The punishment that Dempsey inflicted in Toledo—likely exaggerated as the years passed—can probably be explained by DeForest’s use of a hardening tape to wrap his hands. One observer compared it with bicycle tape, which would make Dempsey’s hands very hard indeed.

Were Dempsey’s gloves loaded in Toledo? Yes—but only in comparison with the softer wrappings that modern fighters wear. The foul-play accusations that surround the Willard fight make wonderful lore but poor history. These were different times.

https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=KBQqDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=jack+dempsey+hard+adhesive+tape&source=bl&ots=wPE9FzZAsZ&sig=wBd6wPZBAPhuXhB7JJGufD2gR3E&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwius9mg6OfZAhWCgrwKHZ2EBLsQ6AEIYDAM#v=onepage&q=jack%20dempsey%20hard%20adhesive%20tape&f=false

Carlos Acevedo—Boxing Writers Association of America/Intenational Boxing Research Organization.

For years, those who pooh-poohed the Railroad Spike Theory and the Plaster of Paris Plot have ignored two simple details.

The first is the fact that Dempsey did wear “loaded gloves.” As Al Spink pointed out in The Atlanta Constitution only months after Dempsey annihilated Willard:….So bandaging knuckles has become an art among the boxers, and the trickiest glove men are adepts in putting on the wraps so as to make the glove as hard as the old Roman cestus, with which the ancient gladiators often killed each other.” Jimmy Deforest explained how Dempsey had achieved such carnage in so short a time. Is it possible that Willard actually inspected Dempsey’s hands before the tape hardened?

https://thecruelestsport.com/2015/06/25/hard-times-the-mystery-of-the-jack-dempsey-jess-willard-fight/

Randy Warren Roberts — “Nearly 40 years later, Roberts’s biography remains the best book written about Jack Dempsey, and it’s not even close.”

Jimmy Deforest, who taped Dempsey's hands, admitted that he used a hard adhesive tape, but that was perfectly legal. Regardless of how hard the tape was during the fight, Dempsey was champion.

https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=skJjoQbhsX8C&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=jack+dempsey+regardless+of+how+hard+the+tape+was&source=bl&ots=0r2Bo691e5&sig=mc7POJgNhMIsy6TibhkZxY6fzl0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwinhsaF6-fZAhUJvLwKHe0AAsgQ6AEIOTAH#v=onepage&q=jack%20dempsey%20regardless%20of%20how%20hard%20the%20tape%20was&f=false

I think I'm in pretty good company, don't you think

[QueensburyRules]

Prove Jimmy Deforest lied. I called you out in the original thread, and you were too chicken shlt to show up


If it were debunked, you need to tell Joe Vila, Arthur Daley, Paul Beston, Carlos Acevedo, Charles Samuel, and Randy Warren Roberts that, because they are/were out there saying that's most likely what happened. Never denied by Dempsey! I know it hurts your soul. Too bad

- -Oh look, TeensyWeensy returns to squawk and run around his pen flapping his feathers.

[Jacobson]

I would say Dempsey.

[Rusty Tromboni]

There is not one reputable source of Dempsey beating his wife and breaking her jaw. The loaded wraps accusation has been debunked. Dempsey did nothing illegal or out of the ordinary as most fighters of the day. Members of Willard's corner were present for his hands being wrapped, as were about a dozen or so reporters. His gloves were inspected and each fighter put them on in the ring in the presence of ref and the opposing corner. The initial accusation was plaster of Paris which was debunked and proven to be a lie, then the goal post got moved to some "magic" bicycle tape that was not illegal and used by most fighters of the day. If Willard's corner thought there was something sketchy going on before, during and after the fight they would have spoken up, they inspected Dempsey's wraps and gloves thoroughly. That jackass you're debating with won't concede. He loves to derail every Dempsey thread (or hijack ones that aren't about him) with his file of sources he has stored just for the occasion. He'll ignore testimony from every sports writer and people who were there. At some point you have to cut your loses and ignore him or he'll keep repeating himself like a mental patient.

Johnson fans are just salty because Willard KO'd Johnson (who lied about taking a dive and then recanted his story), and Dempsey made easy work of Willard.

Willie Pep is pretty accurate in his posts, and regularly supports his arguments with evidence. I didn't feel that he was comitting one way or the other in that post, just acknowledging that the claims had been made. I do appreciate you clearing the air.

Most of the clowns around here will, of course, continue to perpetuate those lies because they don't like White Champions. It's that simple.