The Best Fighter SRR Beat?

[The Old LefHook]

Armstrong had been the greatest fighter he ever fought, but was no longer great when they met.

We know Basilio and Fullmer were both not far from their best when Robinson beat them.

Zivic, Ambers, Fusari, Graziano? Turpin was still young.

Bell, Levine, Angott? Lamotta had one of the top 3 chins in boxing history.

Still the pure best he ever beat may have been the slick Gavilan, whom he could only decision twice. Ray was in his prime, as well.

Who was the best pure package at the time he beat them that Robinson ever beat, if yer so smart?

[Rusty Tromboni]

I really think you're walking me into a trap. Good on you. But this actually is an interesting topic with the potential for meaningful discussion. I don't mind being the butt of a joke once in a while, etiher.

So here's my go:

Armstrong is far and away the best name on Robinson's ledger. But clearly that's about as meaningful as Berbick beating Ali. Or Pendlar beating Robinson. Zivic, Ambers (and Angott?) fall into the same category... unless those wins came when Ray was a Lightweight (the best in the world, even w/o the belt).

It's been said that Robinson's best performance was his KO of Olson. Maybe someone has read otherwise? I personally don't feel like tracking down the source, but that seems about right considering the level of competition and the point in Ray's career. It's ridiculous to suggest Olson was the best fighter he faced, though.

If you wanna cut the difference, so to speak, one of his fights over Gavilan or LaMotta - overrated though they are - was probably the best fighter Ray ever beat: not a top 10 ATG like Armstrong, but not an undersized, shop-worn opponent, either. That's why I say they are in contention for the the best fighter Ray ever beat. Since Gavilan gave up size to RObinson, and LaMotta started out the bigger man, I'll go with the latter.

So let's look at Sugar's 6 fight series with LaMotta: the first fight he plainly out-boxed a guy who was prone to being out-boxed, the second fight he took the road less traveled and brawled with LaMotta (a loss, but an admirable act), and then the last bout saw a desiccated and distracted LaMotta account for himself quite well until fading. An epic finish, but not the best version of LaMotta that Ray ever fought.

So maybe Robinson-LaMotta 3, 4 or 5 was his best performance? Win or lose, he was fighting a man (possibly still) bigger, who had a lot of traits that were stylistically difficult for Ray to overcome. It's hard to definitively say w/o footage. But that's the best deduction we can make.

Seeing him avenge his loss to Turpin and KO Fullmer were amazing feats. The difficulty he experienced in those matches is excessively excused as Ray being past his peak. He might not have been at his best, and they weren't the best challengers a Middleweight champion ever faced. But those were very impressive performances. I just don't know what argument you can make qualifying either of them as his best opponent - even if you recognize how overrated Gavilan and LaMotta are.

Obviously, if he had beaten Maxim that would be in contention for his best win. Not as good a fighter as LaMotta or Gavilan, but an accomplished bigger man, none the less. Walcott fought something like 45 rounds with Maxim, and not once in those three fights did he ever out-shine Maxim so plainly as Robinson did. Charles was very much Maxim's master, but I'm not even sure any of his 5 fights were so one-sided as Robinson's was before the route.

[The Old LefHook]

You are the first one I have heard claim Lamotta and Gavilan were overrated. I never thought of the kid as much smaller than Robinson. In the ring you could easily mistake them for one another.

[Rusty Tromboni]

You are the first one I have heard claim Lamotta and Gavilan were overrated. I never thought of the kid as much smaller than Robinson. In the ring you could easily mistake them for one another.

gavilan gets credit for things he didn't really do.

I know I am a big SRL fan, but even I can admit he mastered stealing rounds. The HAgler fight and the Hearns fight, which I stoutly argue Leonard won, were close. The rematch with Duran was quite come-back - one of boxing's best. I also admit duran basically showed up to run a victory lap around a park and got a marathon through Death Valley.

But those "close calls" don't define Ray. And the circumstances provide considerable context.

Gavilan, on the other hand, IS defined by the close calls. Seriously, who did he ever REALLY beat? The stuff that Ray Leonard caught flack for was basically Gavilan's shtick. He's a top 10 Ww, but people who hype him up are basing it off of superfluous records and highlight footage.

Read the small print and watch the entirety of the available footage. The picture changes.


LaMotta was good. But he wasn;t a top 10 Mw. His best win was against the smaller Robinson. Beating Cerdan and Williams is impressive, but those comes with astericks... what else do you have on him? He's no Zale or Steele, and those guys have almost been erased from the collective memory.

[OctoberRed]

gavilan gets credit for things he didn't really do.

Rusty has a point.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Rusty has a point.

And don't get me wrong, I LOOOVE Gavilan's work. We really could use more guys like that today. The dude would've floated, if his bollocks didn't weight 200 pounds... it's a miracle he could walk. The dude was a warrior.


But while people have fallen in love w/ Gavilan (because of his exciting style) he really never was the best Ww, falling short to Robinson, Graham, and Basillio. Because of his handlers' pull, and his fan-friendly style, he got the credit for what he didn't do.

The Williams' trilogy is a point of contention, too: He bested a Lightweight. One of the absolute best Lightweights ever, but a smaller man, at that point, none-the-less.

[QueensburyRules]

Rusty has a point.

- -Sharp Rusty one atop his noggin.

[QueensburyRules]

- -Prime it has to be LaMotta given Robby went 5-1 in that prime series. Jake made ibro top 10.

http://www.ibroresearch.com/2006/09/middleweights/

Gavilan next x2 who is certainly in Ibro top 20.

[The Old LefHook]

Rusty has a point.

Rusty doesn't have a point at all. WTF are you talking about? All Rusty did throughout the post was make claims without an example? He doesn't have a good example, or he would have used it.

When these characters like Rusty and Queensbree come up with stuff you never heard before (yes, I do group those two together) it is because they are spreading the manure of their own pet theories.

[QueensburyRules]

Rusty doesn't have a point at all. WTF are you talking about? All Rusty did throughout the post was make claims without an example? He doesn't have a good example, or he would have used it.

When these characters like Rusty and Queensbree come up with stuff you never heard before (yes, I do group those two together) it is because they are spreading the manure of their own pet theories.

- -You and Halfwit manure seem to be simpatico.

You composting now?