How do you make ATG lists?

[The Old LefHook]

I like a snowman only list for its information. Some halfwits will immediately shìt. Who cares? You could do any other list--you could do criminal boxers--but a snowman list they will shìt over.

All Time Snowman P4P list:

1 Harry Greb
2 Willie Pep
3 Mickey Walker
4 Gene Tunney
5 Benny Leonard
6 Rocky Marciano
7 Jack Dempsey
8 Freddie Welsh
9 Mike Gibbons
10 Tommy Loughran

[Rusty Tromboni]

Good point.

If smaller fighter is forced to gain some weight, expecially muscle mass, it may completly ruin his style.

Tipical mistake made by small guys when they are moving up in weight is the placement of additional weight - most of addition muscle is plased on upperbody? particulary arms, shoulders. Thats clearly killing fighter legs, may reduce speed and ruin reflexes.

Look at James Toney - at cruiser he became as static as his main training partner, fridge.

Very, very few fighters do not made this mistake. Prime examples are Pacman and Duran. Both keep mobility, footwork and great part of power despite gaining a lot of weight.

I know you're not trying to state a maxim, and clearly understand there's nuance. But your post could be misleading to some. Simply put, gaining and cutting weight has to be done properly to be effective. There's no black and white statement to be made other than that.

Marciano and Jones ARE the perfect example of fighters benefiting from added muscle mass.

Marciano had the body of a powerlifter, not a marathon runner. But that's mostly how he trained. Right, training like a power-lifter would never appropriately suit him, but he had the body-type for adding mass, while you'd never see him competing professionally in long-distance events.

In the modern sport, he'd get away with a lot of additional size. The rounds are fewer, the gloves are bigger, the fight is essentially more anaerobic, most of his opponents would either be excessively weight-drained or under-trained.

He could also make the Light Heavyweight limit. There's no denying that claim, which also regularly surfaces. (I would bet most Super Middleweights enter the ring heavier than Marciano ever did). But that would probably provide an example of the opposite effect of weight-cutting: lost steam.

With today's medicine, nutrition, training methods, and regulations, Marciano could easily pack on 20 pounds w/o suffering any deficit in mobility, stamina and coordination. And he'd find himself comfortably exploiting his opponent's ponderousness: a luxury he never enjoyed in his own time.

There's limits to where he could take it: some guys since have just been too big. Even with HGH, a 210 pound version of Marciano wouldn't be meaningfully taller or lengthier; he'd be giving up size one crucial way or another. I just needed to point out that many fighters, notably Dempsey and Marciano, would have clearly benefited from modern developments in the sport. For them bigger would definitely be better.

The proof is in the pudding:

Jones looked as good against Ruiz as he did against Hopkins. Holyfield, Spinks and Byrd clearly got better as they got bigger even though they traded off their size advantage to fight at a great size disparity.

Sorry to rant on your very good post. I just had to get that off my chest, as this forum sees a lot of people going on about a subject they don't really understand. In fact, I doubt many of them have any meaningful first-handed experience in the matter.

Look at James Toney - at cruiser he became as static as his main training partner, fridge.

Best. Post. EVER.

[Rusty Tromboni]

I can great a good list for Rocky Balboa based on these four tabs.

[QueensburyRules]

- -Time to keep it real for you fantasy gamers.

Never any indication Rock wanted to make 175, and why should he in a 12rd era where he could fight at 220 and look good ?

Putting him on the Field vitamins bumps him to 230, but no indication he'd need to do that either, but I hear some ground unicorn horn is on the lesser fighters

[The Old LefHook]

I guess Rocky's neck will balloon like a bull moose during its rut.

[QueensburyRules]

- -Tim Bradley prob the most Muscled up welter in history had skinny legs with unlimited stamina and ring movement.

Seeing a lot of false physiotyping in this thread.

[MaxT]

- -Tim Bradley prob the most Muscled up welter in history had skinny legs with unlimited stamina and ring movement.

Seeing a lot of false physiotyping in this thread.

Bradley is not muscular, he is small/compact (short with short ams) and ripped or jacked whenever you call it.

Not so high muscle mass for his weight, like in steroid-filled Yarde, but low fat.

Besides, he is black. Black guys tend to have smaller shins (compare to hipp). Even Tyson shins a not particulary meaty.

[MaxT]

Marciano and Jones ARE the perfect example of fighters benefiting from added muscle mass.

They simply grow into weight, they never use bodybuildings methods to get mass, like its often a case nowadays.

Marciano had the body of a powerlifter, not a marathon runner.

Actualy, he do not look as a powelifter at all.


I think the fact that I have run something like a dozen maraphons make me maraphon runner of sorts. According to my experiense, white maraphon runners often are relatively short, stocky and muscular and even more so for supermaraphoners and skirunners.

Top level runners of kenian stock is another story.

In the modern sport, he'd get away with a lot of additional size. The rounds are fewer, the gloves are bigger, the fight is essentially more anaerobic, most of his opponents would either be excessively weight-drained or under-trained.

Hes problem in not the size, it mostly a style.
Marciano fought mostl goys 180-185 cm (5'10''-6'1"), veryt few were higher. His style was adapted to fughting man few inches taller.
He never was in situation tipical to Dwight Qawi or David Tua.
We never see fight with Valdez.
Can you imadgine Marciano beaten the guys like Ruddock or Smith? Not puny over the-hill cruiser 184 cm/88 kg with now big punch or good chin, but a big, tough, mean heavy?

Rocky acheeves his victories by being strongest man in the ring - he have unique combination on muscule strengh and punchpower for man of his size (and nearly all of Marciano opponents was of his size), plus extreeme willpower to win no matter what. Mike Tyson in 80-s have roughly the same advantages over foes, but instead of willpower he have speed, skils and talent, so no need to overcame his limits.

[Marchegiano]

I appreciate y'all's input.