The Top 20 All-Time Greatest P4P List

[GhostofDempsey]

I posted the primary sources to back up my statements ,times dates,purses,locations ,promoters. authors The fact that you refuse to accept them is down to you ,no point in debating this further .I'd just point out that if we overlooked your phobic hatred of Johnson ,the rest of your content is okay which makes it a shame you have this irrational bias.
Please produce any negative remarks Sam McVey ever made about Johnson,they were close friends and McVey lived with Johnson and travelled with him sometimes acting as his second.Johnson of course paid for McVey's funeral.

Yet he never fought them as champion. He could have had those fights made easily in France or elsewhere, but it never happened and he never wanted it. His own quotes on the subject regarding color line and being the only black champion support the actual quotes by Jeannette, Langford and McVey on the subject. Historians collectively agree he didn’t give them a legitimate shot at the title. You insist on glossing over the fact that Jeannette defeated Battling Jim twice that year before Johnson fought him, and he turned down $20k for Jeannette while settling for peanuts on Battling Jim. That is a duck in any era of boxing. Stop clinging to double standards.

[Ivich]

Yet he never fought them as champion. He could have had those fights made easily in France or elsewhere, but it never happened and he never wanted it. His own quotes on the subject regarding color line and being the only black champion support the actual quotes by Jeannette, Langford and McVey on the subject. Historians collectively agree he didn’t give them a legitimate shot at the title. You insist on glossing over the fact that Jeannette defeated Battling Jim twice that year before Johnson fought him, and he turned down $20k for Jeannette while settling for peanuts on Battling Jim. That is a duck in any era of boxing. Stop clinging to double standards.

Johnson was a fighter not a promoter if those fights would have been profitable why didn't promoters put them on? In which locations could Johnson have made profitable defences against this trio?
Jeannette made a statement after the twice failure of his proposed fights with Johnson fell through saying he did not blame Johnson for the defences not happening. Now I've asked you to provide a quote from McVey ripping Johnson for not defending against him will you now produce one?
Which offer of $20,000 do you say Johnson turned down to defend against Jeannette?Please provide details?
Johnson received about $5000 for the Battling Jim bout.
You make sweeping general statements but they are always light on details For example when I explained that Kid Cotton's record was a dismal losing one and that he never merited a title shot you popped up with Jack Murray saying well Johnson fought him and his record was poor? Unaware that the Murray v Johnson was an exhibition.

[GhostofDempsey]

Johnson was a fighter not a promoter if those fights would have been profitable why didn't promoters put them on? In which locations could Johnson have made profitable defences against this trio?
Jeannette made a statement after the twice failure of his proposed fights with Johnson fell through saying he did not blame Johnson for the defences not happening. Now I've asked you to provide a quote from McVey ripping Johnson for not defending against him will you now produce one?
Which offer of $20,000 do you say Johnson turned down to defend against Jeannette?Please provide details?
Johnson received about $5000 for the Battling Jim bout.
You make sweeping general statements but they are always light on details For example when I explained that Kid Cotton's record was a dismal losing one and that he never merited a title shot you popped up with Jack Murray saying well Johnson fought him and his record was poor? Unaware that the Murray v Johnson was an exhibition.

I already told you he could have made these fights in France. Stop playing games, it's been documented on here that Johnson was offered $20K to fight Jeannette. You said Johnson received over $1K of the $5K the fight earned overall. Either way, whether it was $1K or $5K, he turned down $20K for Jeannette to fight the guy that Jeannette defeated 2x earlier that same year. How does Johnson go from insisting on nothing less than $30K to accepting < $5K? The same $5K he would have received to defend his title against Langford when he reneged on a contract. You're out of your depth on this topic because your bias won't allow you to admit when you are wrong or that Johnson chose Battling Jim as a cherry pick that had backfired. You'll call Jeannette, Langford, and McVey liars, but Johnson himself was the biggest liar of them all, even lied about taking a dive against Willard and backed out of a contract to give Langford his title shot.

[Ivich]

I already told you he could have made these fights in France. Stop playing games, it's been documented on here that Johnson was offered $20K to fight Jeannette. You said Johnson received over $1K of the $5K the fight earned overall. Either way, whether it was $1K or $5K, he turned down $20K for Jeannette to fight the guy that Jeannette defeated 2x earlier that same year. How does Johnson go from insisting on nothing less than $30K to accepting < $5K? The same $5K he would have received to defend his title against Langford when he reneged on a contract. You're out of your depth on this topic because your bias won't allow you to admit when you are wrong or that Johnson chose Battling Jim as a cherry pick that had backfired. You'll call Jeannette, Langford, and McVey liars, but Johnson himself was the biggest liar of them all, even lied about taking a dive against Willard and backed out of a contract to give Langford his title shot.

Johnson wanted $30,not $20 grand when it was offered to him twice he accepted and signed for the fight.
re-reading Pollack's two volumes on Johnson I find I was wrong about the amount he received ,it was about $5000 according to AdamJohnson hadn't fought for some time and was desperate for cash my understanding is he took the fight expecting a bigger return maybe the fact that Langford and Jeannette fought the next day in the same city impacted on the lack of a big gate.I don't know.Maybe Johnson just thought." this guy isn't much I'll take the small purse he's no threat "?
.I've called nobody a liar I just pointed out that Jeannette himself absolved Johnson of any guilt that the two proposed title fights with himself fell through and he made a public statement on it.
I've asked you twice today to produce a quote from McVey in which he blamed Johnson for his not getting a title shot ,you haven't done so ,will you now do it?
Will you also produce offers of $30,000 to defend against ANY of the three that Johnson turned down I don't know how many times I've requested this proof, yet you've responded with NOTHING!

Johnson signed to fight Langford before he won the title from Burns In my view he should have honoured that contract,his argument was, now I'm champ I deserve a bigger purse and made the purse the amount that Burns had gotten to face him.
I've no doubt Johnson preferred to defend against the White Hopes.
1. He got more money for doing so.
2.Promoters had no difficulty filling arenas with patrons hoping to see the title go into white hands.
3.Johnson did not have to be in top shape to beat these challengers and he knew that the Black trio were more dangerous and hence he would need to be in better shape for them.
4. Documented offers of $30,000 for Johnson to defend against the Trio are ZERO
5.He accepted a comparable offer for a two part defence against Langford and McVey the fight was pulled because of public opinion
6. He twice accepted comparable offers to defend against NY favourite Jeannette in NY.The NYAC vetoed the fight.
These are facts, what you offer are only biased opinions fueled by hatred.

[5G14L90]

Last 60 Years

Vasyl Lomachenko
Roman Gonzalez
Terence Crawford
Naoya Inoue
Andre Ward
Nonito Donaire, Jr.
Saul 'Canelo' Alvarez
Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
Manny Pacquiao
Bernard Hopkins
Roy Jones, Jr.
Oscar De La Hoya
Pernell Whitaker
Evander Holyfield
Julio Cesar Chavez, Sr.
Sugar Ray Leonard
Roberto Duran
Thomas Hearns
Marvelous Marvin Hagler
Muhammad Ali

[arumhaymonhearn]

Last 60 Years

Vasyl Lomachenko
Roman Gonzalez
Terence Crawford
Naoya Inoue
Andre Ward
Nonito Donaire, Jr.
Saul 'Canelo' Alvarez
Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
Manny Pacquiao
Bernard Hopkins
Roy Jones, Jr.
Oscar De La Hoya
Pernell Whitaker
Evander Holyfield
Julio Cesar Chavez, Sr.
Sugar Ray Leonard
Roberto Duran
Thomas Hearns
Marvelous Marvin Hagler
Muhammad Ali

How on earth is Loma #1 ?

[mrbig1]

Last 60 Years

Vasyl Lomachenko
Roman Gonzalez
Terence Crawford
Naoya Inoue
Andre Ward
Nonito Donaire, Jr.
Saul 'Canelo' Alvarez
Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
Manny Pacquiao
Bernard Hopkins
Roy Jones, Jr.
Oscar De La Hoya
Pernell Whitaker
Evander Holyfield
Julio Cesar Chavez, Sr.
Sugar Ray Leonard
Roberto Duran
Thomas Hearns
Marvelous Marvin Hagler
Muhammad Ali

No James Toney, Carlos Monzon or Ricardo Lopez???

[5G14L90]

How on earth is Loma #1 ?

This wasn't in order

[5G14L90]

No James Toney, Carlos Monzon or Ricardo Lopez???

I wanted to put Toney, but fights against Reggie Johnson (which I think he should have lost 114-113 due to knockdown), Tiberi, Jones, Jr., Griffin, Thadzi go against him. I don't rate the Holyfield win that highly and the failed drug test against Ruiz hurts him as well. I like Toney a lot, but he's tough (to rank) I'm not against including him.

Lopez to me is a great talent, but doesn't really have the noteworthy wins. I also think he deserved to lose first Alvarez fight.

Monzon is some one that can be argued to be included (Benvenuti I, Griffith I, Briscoe II, Valdes I & II), but I'm okay with not having him included.

If there's one person that I would include that I previously didn't, it would be Emile Griffith.

[QueensburyRules]

[QUOTE=5G14L90;n31473771]

I wanted to put Toney, but fights against Reggie Johnson (which I think he should have lost 114-113 due to knockdown), Tiberi, Jones, Jr., Griffin, Thadzi go against him. I don't rate the Holyfield win that highly and the failed drug test against Ruiz hurts him as well. I like Toney a lot, but he's tough (to rank) I'm not against including him.

Lopez to me is a great talent, but doesn't really have the noteworthy wins. I also think he deserved to lose first Alvarez fight.

Monzon is some one that can be argued to be included (Benvenuti I, Griffith I, Briscoe II, Valdes I & II), but I'm okay with not having him included.

If there's one person that I would include that I previously didn't, it would be Emile Griffith.[/QUOTE}


- - So you put in Emile over Monzon who BTFO Emile 2x?

Only list Wart belongs on is in Imelda Marcus' shoe collection. He managed to be an even uglier fighter than Toney.