Who ducked whom: John Sullivan vs. Peter Jackson

[travestyny]

- -Any pics of Sully and the original Prince together?

JL had a long spar and theatrical history with Corbett.

Go back to his last fight preCorbett. Where was Jackson in the time line?

There's your clue.

Not sure if they have pictures together, but according to this, they met and shook hands.

That year Sullivan left America on his financially disastrous theatrical trip to Australia. On the eve of his departure, Jackson was introduced to him. for the first. time. As they shook hands, John L. remarked, "I can beat any man in the world, Peter." Looking him squarely in the eye, Jackson answered with customary modesty and no tinge of sarcasm in his voice: "I don't say that much, Mr. Sullivan, but I'm quite prepared to try." As far as Sullivan was concerned he was never given the chance...

Also says Sully signed to fight, then backed out by telegram a week later.

Returning to America, he had six more rapid wins; and the president of the California Athletics Club almost succeeded in getting him into the ring with Sullivan.....The champion actually signed articles for a match but a week later thought better of it and cancelled the agreement by telegram.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/131252962

[QueensburyRules]

Not sure if they have pictures together, but according to this, they met and shook hands.




Also says Sully signed to fight, then backed out by telegram a week later.

- -Your link is a gibberish of broken sentences and multiple random punctuations on my iPhone.

Could you copy and paste the text?

I will say Sully fought once in 88 and then inactive for 4 yr to Corbett.

Jackson started 88 with a loss in Oz but ended up in the SF AC of Sullys 88 bout.

Was Sully ducking Jackson and Corbett those 4 years? At Corbett/Sully fight, months before Jackson was fighting in England.

Jackson returned for a few bouts and dropped out for 6 years. He and Sully ducking each other?

And now ducking New champ Corbett?

My point is the ducking term in boxing mostly overused by the unwashed public.

[Rusty Tromboni]

In the early days of the internet, on an AOL chat room, I remember seeing a post where Jackson declined an offer to fight Sullivan.


I have not been able to find it since. And while I would love to see the proof in print, I really cannot be bothered to do that kind of leg-work.

Maybe that never happened. Maybe someone fabricated it.


The truth is, it doesn't matter:
1) No one at the time considered Jackson Sullivan's equal.
2) Their timelines don't precisely add up
3) A green Corbett drew with Jaconson - and left the ring the fresher man. He then when on to beat a seriously deteriorated Sullivan. (Do you consider Young better than Ali? Witherspoon better than Holmes? Joshua better than Klitchko?)

There have been a lot of myths fabricated at the expense of Sullivan over the many decades since his rule. And that makes sense. It's an easy name to make money off of. History is full of stories which are crafted at later dates but become dogma:

There's a whole religion built around an individual named "Muhammad"; Sun Tzu is still a best selling author; textbooks site Marco Polo's travels as an impetus for the Age of Discovery. If people that we categorically know did not even exist can have that impact, imagine what can be done with real people.

[travestyny]

- -Your link is a gibberish of broken sentences and multiple random punctuations on my iPhone.

Could you copy and paste the text?

I will say Sully fought once in 88 and then inactive for 4 yr to Corbett.

Jackson started 88 with a loss in Oz but ended up in the SF AC of Sullys 88 bout.

Was Sully ducking Jackson and Corbett those 4 years? At Corbett/Sully fight, months before Jackson was fighting in England.

Jackson returned for a few bouts and dropped out for 6 years. He and Sully ducking each other?

And now ducking New champ Corbett?

My point is the ducking term in boxing mostly overused by the unwashed public.

If it makes you happy, you don't have to call it ducking. But the question is, did Sully refuse to fight Jackson when the fight was offered to him.

The reason that there are so many punctuation issues is because the text is taken from an old newspaper article, and when they make it into the digital copy, it's less than perfect. I can paste the entire text if you like, but it won't look pretty.

Maybe the original article will be better....? Click to enlarge it.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Of course, avoiding a negro was one of the easiest things to pull off back in the day.

Was it!? Prove it, then. Should be "easy", right?

Plenty of Whites fought Blacks. I mean, think about it, outside of the ring, Whites were always beating up Black people whenever Blacks were trying to take their jobs. Blacks had to have police escorts to leave their neighborhoods.

To their credit, ***s and Italians fought back. Germans and Poles might not have even been targeted. But there was no question that the Irish ran the streets. Blacks couldn't even free themselves. But some how the people who died freeing them were supposed to fear them? Coming from Europe where things were a matter of life and death, you learned to fear no man. Especially ones with no chin, and no heart.

By the time you get to Tunney and Loughran they were refusing to fight Blacks because Blacks were considered inferior. But no one dodged Blacks because they were Black. My grandfather was related to Gunboat Smith, and sparred with Loughran. Never ever did he talk about Whites avoiding Black fighters. Certainly guys with a big punch (a ***ish guy named Joe Choyski comes to mind) were famous for being avoided. But never was there a hint that Blacks were avoided or feared. My grandmom was Slovak from the Coal Region. they had NOTHING. Life was terrible for them. When they moved to Philadelphia they would get off the trolley if Black people got on. It was a matter of pride.
Obviously things were different for my mother and her brothers growing up. But the 20th Century moved fast.

Different times. Different perspective.

On the other hand, wouldn't publicity machines go wild if Jackson turned down an offer from the great one?

Would they? Did the "publicity machines" even expect these men to fight? Did the "publicity machines" have the same lofty view of Jackson that you do today, in 2019, because some revisionists authors told you to? Did the "publicity machines" even follow Boxing - which was mostly illegal. You'd get in less trouble for dog fighting.

[travestyny]

In the early days of the internet, on an AOL chat room, I remember seeing a post where Jackson declined an offer to fight Sullivan.


I have not been able to find it since. And while I would love to see the proof in print, I really cannot be bothered to do that kind of leg-work.

Maybe that never happened. Maybe someone fabricated it.


The truth is, it doesn't matter:
1) No one at the time considered Jackson Sullivan's equal.
2) Their timelines don't precisely add up
3) A green Corbett drew with Jaconson - and left the ring the fresher man. He then when on to beat a seriously deteriorated Sullivan. (Do you consider Young better than Ali? Witherspoon better than Holmes? Joshua better than Klitchko?)

There have been a lot of myths fabricated at the expense of Sullivan over the many decades since his rule. And that makes sense. It's an easy name to make money off of. History is full of stories which are crafted at later dates but become dogma:

There's a whole religion built around an individual named "Muhammad"; Sun Tzu is still a best selling author; history books site Marco Polo's travels as an impetus for the Age of Discovery. If people that we categorically know did not even exist can have that impact, imagine what can be done with real people.

So you don't have any proof of what you say? Hmm. Maybe it was made up???

You were the one who said it mattered. You kept saying, "Why did Jackson decline Sully's offer," but now it doesn't matter at all because in your mind Sully was better. But from what I see, Sully didn't want to fight him.

So did Sullivan ever draw the color line or not?

[travestyny]

Was it!? Prove it, then. Should be "easy", right?

Plenty of Whites fought Blacks. I mean, think about it, outside of the ring, Whites were always beating up Black people whenever Blacks were trying to take their jobs. Blacks had to have police escorts to leave their neighborhoods.

To their credit, ***s and Italians fought back. Germans and Poles might not have even been targeted. But there was no question that the Irish ran the streets. Blacks couldn't even free themselves. But some how the people who died freeing them were supposed to fear them? Coming from Europe where things were a matter of life and death, you learned to fear no man. Especially ones with no chin, and no heart.

By the time you get to Tunney and Loughran they were refusing to fight Blacks because Blacks were considered inferior. But no one dodged Blacks because they were Black. My grandfather was related to Gunboat Smith, and sparred with Loughran. Never ever did he talk about Whites avoiding Black fighters. Certainly guys with a big punch (a ***ish guy named Joe Choyski comes to mind) were famous for being avoided. But never was there a hint that Blacks were avoided or feared. My grandmom was Slovak from the Coal Region. they had NOTHING. Life was terrible for them. When they moved to Philadelphia they would get off the trolley if Black people got on. It was a matter of pride.
Obviously things were different for my mother and her brothers growing up. But the 20th Century moved fast.

Different times. Different perspective.




Would they? Did the "publicity machines" even expect these men to fight? Did the "publicity machines" have the same lofty view of Jackson that you do today, in 2019, because some revisionists authors told you to? Did the "publicity machines" even follow Boxing - which was mostly illegal. You'd get in less trouble for dog fighting.

LOL. Another great post by you. "Blacks were inferior boxers because black girls needed an escort to integrate schools."

Tunney refused to fight blacks because they were inferior? You are basing that on what? You have a quotation from Tunney stating that? How dare you take it upon yourself to make Tunney into a White Supremacist. I'd love to see the proof of that.

Be careful...you are toeing that line with your absolute bs again

[Rusty Tromboni]

So you don't have any proof of what you say? Hmm. Maybe it was made up???

You were the one who said it mattered. You kept saying, "Why did Jackson decline Sully's offer," but now it doesn't matter at all because in your mind Sully was better. But from what I see, Sully didn't want to fight him.

So did Sullivan ever draw the color line or not?

Clearly, it does matter. But if it didn't happen that doesn't change anything. That's pretty easy to see.

Sullivan refusing to fight Blacks was like the "color line" in Baseball. Has there ever been a Black Baseball player as good as Babe Ruth or Ted Williams? Would Mickey Mantle, Curt Shilling, and Mike Trout have been worse players if they played in a sport without Blacks? Sure, you may not like a "rule". But its existence is no reflection of the quality of the athlete.

What does matter is that Sullivan was considered better. And HE was World Champion.

While Sullivan was at his peak, Jackson was still fumbling around in Australia. Only during Sullivan's hiatus did Jackson move to the United States. His record becomes pretty active - we can credit him for that. But it is difficult to ascertain the quality of his competition. What we can say: he definitely didn't have Sullivan's KO punch; his best win was over Slavin; he fought Corbett, who only had 7 Pro fights, to a draw.

He was never the best Heavyweight in the world. At least he never positioned himself to prove that. If there were a window of time between Sullivan's descent and Corbett's rise where Jackson - had luck been on his side - might have held that spot, OK. But he would never have been more than a place-holder.

That's the conclusion we can draw from the evidence we have.

[travestyny]

By the time you get to Tunney and Loughran they were refusing to fight Blacks because Blacks were considered inferior.

I can already see the next thread!


Was Gene Tunney a White Supremacist? Well resident historian Rusty Tromboni claims he was! And he has the proof!


This is the thread that keeps on giving



Again, I want the details, Rusty. And I still want to know if Sully drew the color line, or is that a myth, too? Hopefully this time you have some proof to back you up on these claims!

[travestyny]

Clearly, it does matter. But if it didn't happen that doesn't change anything. That's pretty easy to see.

Sullivan refusing to fight Blacks was like the "color line" in Baseball. Has there ever been a Black Baseball player as good as Babe Ruth or Ted Williams? Would Mickey Mantle, Curt Shilling, and Mike Trout have been worse players if they played in a sport without Blacks? Sure, you may not like a "rule". But its existence is no reflection of the quality of the athlete.

What does matter is that Sullivan was considered better. And HE was World Champion.

While Sullivan was at his peak, Jackson was still fumbling around in Australia. Only during Sullivan's hiatus did Jackson move to the United States. His record becomes pretty active - we can credit him for that. But it is difficult to ascertain the quality of his competition. What we can say: he definitely didn't have Sullivan's KO punch; his best win was over Slavin; he fought Corbett, who only had 7 Pro fights, to a draw.

He was never the best Heavyweight in the world. At least he never positioned himself to prove that. If there were a window of time between Sullivan's descent and Corbett's rise where Jackson - had luck been on his side - might have held that spot, OK. But he would never have been more than a place-holder.

That's the conclusion we can draw from the evidence we have.

Some would say he fought Corbett to a draw, going 61 rounds, and 2 fights later Corbett KOed Sully. So if you are trying to make comparisons based on who they fought, I think you are going the wrong way, buddy.

He never positioned himself to be the best heavyweight....but how could he when the champion refused to fight him by drawing the color line. Isn't that what you're saying?

So you agree that Sullivan drew the color line on Peter Jackson then, right?


By the way, I guess you never heard of Willie Mays. Hank Aaron. Barry Bonds. Yea, never heard of them, right?

You try far too hard to try to prove blacks are not good athletes, and you fall flat on your face every time. Be careful!