Is it possible that Floyd Mayweather was technically a better boxer than Muhammad Ali

[Eff Pandas]

Being that he is my all time favourite HW, I know plenty about Joe Louis. I don’t believe he was greater than Ali, not do I believe he would beat him H2H, though I give him more chance than other people do.

H2H is stupid when decades separate boxers. The game changes over time. People learn & advance from history. I would contend in the crazy scifi logic that if Ali had been born in the 1910s with Louis or Louis born in the 1940s with Ali that Louis would have been the superior fighter sharing the era together. Louis was just a more versatile guy & had a real offensive arsenal for his opponents. Ali just had that bs cheat code of jab & run.

You say his skills were basic and he relied on his athleticism, yet he had one of the longest top level careers of any HW ever, and he continued to get big wins well past the time when he was at his athletic prime.

Idk about that. Ali wore out around the time lotsa fighters do in his mid 30s. I don't see any crazy longevity in Ali that I don't see in many other HWs. I think cuz he was on the scene young there is a projection of that but don't forget he had those 3 years off to rest his body & its not like he was fighting Frazier or Norton or Foreman every fight in those prime years.

Ali has better top level wins than Louis and more wins over top 10 contenders (in one of the deepest HW divisions ever no less).

Whats each guys record vs top ten guys, if you know that enough to bring it up, cuz idk if I buy that thats true & don't got time to research that right now?

He would also have been a stylistic nightmare for Louis who for all his brilliance was prone to giving away rounds and often struggled when the big KAyo didn’t come. Couple that with Ali’s ATG chin, recovery, will to win, if Louis did find that big punch, and it’s near impossible to see Louis as the favourite in this matchup.

Ali was a stylistic nightmare for any HW in history cuz he ran from you all night, which isn't a very HW thing to do, & did his cheatcode of just scoring points with the jab primarily til you got gassed or actually started to get effed up by the jab that he'd throw more behind it & maybe get the KO. I don't think Louis wouldn't have figured him out in 15rds doe in some sci fi time machine fight. Maybe they rob Louis if our lil sci fi time machine fight had Louis born in the 1940s & fighting Ali in the 70s doe cuz Ali got gifted a bunch of decisions. He's probably the HW champion of all time with gift decisions.

[Tom Cruise]

H2H is stupid when decades separate boxers. The game changes over time. People learn & advance from history. I would contend in the crazy scifi logic that if Ali had been born in the 1910s with Louis or Louis born in the 1940s with Ali that Louis would have been the superior fighter sharing the era together. Louis was just a more versatile guy & had a real offensive arsenal for his opponents. Ali just had that bs cheat code of jab & run.



Idk about that. Ali wore out around the time lotsa fighters do in his mid 30s. I don't see any crazy longevity in Ali that I don't see in many other HWs. I think cuz he was on the scene young there is a projection of that but don't forget he had those 3 years off to rest his body & its not like he was fighting Frazier or Norton or Foreman every fight in those prime years.



Whats each guys record vs top ten guys, if you know that enough to bring it up, cuz idk if I buy that thats true & don't got time to research that right now?



Ali was a stylistic nightmare for any HW in history cuz he ran from you all night, which isn't a very HW thing to do, & did his cheatcode of just scoring points with the jab primarily til you got gassed or actually started to get effed up by the jab that he'd throw more behind it & maybe get the KO. I don't think Louis wouldn't have figured him out in 15rds doe in some sci fi time machine fight. Maybe they rob Louis if our lil sci fi time machine fight had Louis born in the 1940s & fighting Ali in the 70s doe cuz Ali got gifted a bunch of decisions. He's probably the HW champion of all time with gift decisions.

Well in terms of top 10 ranked opp (at the time they fought), I used the ring annual top 10 rankings the year before the fight takes place because that is a better indication of where they were ranked when they fought, rather than after they had fought, because the annual rankings were released early in the year after the listed year (if that makes any sense at all). Obviously rankings changed throughout the year as well, so Im aware how flawed this is. I wish the Ring would catalogue all the rankings from all their issues. Would be great for this kind of breakdown.

Joe Louis:

'34:
Charley Massare (8), Lee Ramage (10)

'35:
Patsy Perroni (6), Lee Ramage (10), Natie Brown (8), Primo Carnera (2), King Levinsky (5), Max Baer (listed Champ but had just lost to Braddock)

'36:
Charley Retzcalf (4), Max Schmelling (2) - Lost, Al Ettore (9)

'37:
Jim Braddock (Champ)

'38:
Nathan Mann (3), Max Schmelling (1)

'39:
Tony Galento (4), Bob Pastor (3)

'40:
Johnny Paychek (6)

'41:
Red Burman (3), Abe Simon (4), Buddy Baer (6)

'42:
Buddy Baer (7), Abe Simon (5)

'46:
Billy Conn (1), Tami Mauriello (2)

'47:
Jersey Joe Walcott (3)

'48:
Jersey Joe Walcott (1)

'50:
Ezzard Charles (Champ) - Lost

'51:
Lee Savold (2), Rocky Marciano (10) - Lost

26-3


Muhammad Ali:

'61:
Alex Miteff (8)

'62:
Alejandro Lavoronte (4), George Logan (10)

'63:
Doug Jones (3), Henry Cooper (10)

'64:
Sonny Liston (Champion)

'65:
Sonny Liston (1), Floyd Patterson (2)

'66:
George Chuvalo (3), Brian London (10), Karl Mildenburger (4)

'67:
Ernie Terrell (1), Zora Folley (2)

'70:
Jerry Quarry (3), Oscar Bonavena (7)

'71:
Joe Frazier (Champ) - Lost

'72:
Mac Foster (5), Jerry Quarry (2), Floyd Patterson (7)

'73:
Joe Bugner (8), Ken Norton (9) - Lost, Ken Norton (9)

'74:
Joe Frazier (2), George Foreman (Champ)

'75:
Chuck Wepner (5), Ron Lyle (3), Joe Bugner (5), Joe Frazier (3)

'76:
Jimmy Young (2), Ken Norton (1)

'80:
Larry Holmes (1) - Lost

'81:
Trevor Berbick (7) - Lost

28-4

Very close! Ali just edges it. Both guys missed out on a few that probably should have made it. Earnie Shavers, Henry Cooper, Lou Nova, Billy Conn I, Arturo Godoy II etc. Decided to just stick with the rules so it was less subjective and I couldnt be accused of bias. Speaking subjectively I feel the top level of Ali's wins (Frazier, Liston, Foreman) trumps Louis, or any other HW you can name.

As far as I know, no other HW comes close to these two, though to be fair I havent gone through them name by name.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on Ali's technical ability. I'm aware he wasnt flawless, especially looking at pure punch technique, but I'm surprised you are that down on his skillset and ring IQ. He really was a brilliant boxer and thinker as well as athlete. No doubt his athleticism was built into his style just the same as Louis' power was built into his. Nobody would be the same without their best attribute so to me it makes little sense to ask what they would have if they didnt have it.

[HOUDINI563]

Ali was the greatest because he was only the fastest hwt ever, much faster jab than SRR, not only had the greatest left jab, not only had the greatest ring IQ, not only was pinpoint accurate and threw lightning rapid fire combination, not only could move laterally for 15 rounds but he had all this PLUS he was as tough as nails with will to win second to none. And everything he did he made it look smooth and easy. I rooted against Ali in every bout he ever fought and I’m here today to say I was wrong. He was the greatest. At his best no other hwt had a chance. Too quick, too tough.

[QueensburyRules]

--- Ali never moved around laterally for 15 rds.

That's just yer misty eyed schoolboyism indelibly stamped in yer memory bank. Like Peter Pan, you never grew up and have Ali showing up in a golden cloud to flit about the ring scarcely needing to lift a pinky before ascending into the heavens victorious and invincible.

Schoolboy 101 that most all maltriculate out of, but not you, but you and Ali can fly!!!

Whoooopee cushion powah!!!

[HOUDINI563]

Another impossible to decipher post by Queen. Do you speak English?

[QueensburyRules]

--- I speak boxing to your cotton candy fluffery.

Pray tell do us the fights where Ali stayed on the move for 15 rds.

Rubbing my hands in glee. This is gonna get good boys!

[HOUDINI563]

To say prime Ali could not move and box for 15 rounds is like saying Louis could not KO any fight over 15 rounds in any round. Did Louis KO an opponent in rounds 14 or 15 NO could he do it? Of course.

Ali proved he was a remarkably conditioned athlete in his prime. Look at the display of non stop boxing vs Terrell as one example. Ali was as fresh in round 15 as he was in round 1.

You use very amateurish points to degrade black fighters. Study up you have not gained any improvement since I kicked your butt every night on aol boxing 20 years ago. Same nonsensical crap.

[QueensburyRules]

--- Squalin' about racism, eh?

Last refuge of a coward getting whooped. Ali didn't run much against Terrell, but he did punch hisself out around 10-11 when he couldn't ko the half blind Terrell and had to take a round off.

You using a bad example to back up yer schoolboyism is to be expected. Ali was a hero to me, but then he got fat and let hisself be propped up in the ring to his detriment and the fighters he robbed.

Never ran long because he gave up rds where he exhausted hisself for nothing. Keep the comedy coming!

[Eff Pandas]

Well in terms of top 10 ranked opp (at the time they fought), I used the ring annual top 10 rankings the year before the fight takes place because that is a better indication of where they were ranked when they fought, rather than after they had fought, because the annual rankings were released early in the year after the listed year (if that makes any sense at all). Obviously rankings changed throughout the year as well, so Im aware how flawed this is. I wish the Ring would catalogue all the rankings from all their issues. Would be great for this kind of breakdown.

Joe Louis:

'34:
Charley Massare (8), Lee Ramage (10)

'35:
Patsy Perroni (6), Lee Ramage (10), Natie Brown (8), Primo Carnera (2), King Levinsky (5), Max Baer (listed Champ but had just lost to Braddock)

'36:
Charley Retzcalf (4), Max Schmelling (2) - Lost, Al Ettore (9)

'37:
Jim Braddock (Champ)

'38:
Nathan Mann (3), Max Schmelling (1)

'39:
Tony Galento (4), Bob Pastor (3)

'40:
Johnny Paychek (6)

'41:
Red Burman (3), Abe Simon (4), Buddy Baer (6)

'42:
Buddy Baer (7), Abe Simon (5)

'46:
Billy Conn (1), Tami Mauriello (2)

'47:
Jersey Joe Walcott (3)

'48:
Jersey Joe Walcott (1)

'50:
Ezzard Charles (Champ) - Lost

'51:
Lee Savold (2), Rocky Marciano (10) - Lost

26-3


Muhammad Ali:

'61:
Alex Miteff (8)

'62:
Alejandro Lavoronte (4), George Logan (10)

'63:
Doug Jones (3), Henry Cooper (10)

'64:
Sonny Liston (Champion)

'65:
Sonny Liston (1), Floyd Patterson (2)

'66:
George Chuvalo (3), Brian London (10), Karl Mildenburger (4)

'67:
Ernie Terrell (1), Zora Folley (2)

'70:
Jerry Quarry (3), Oscar Bonavena (7)

'71:
Joe Frazier (Champ) - Lost

'72:
Mac Foster (5), Jerry Quarry (2), Floyd Patterson (7)

'73:
Joe Bugner (8), Ken Norton (9) - Lost, Ken Norton (9)

'74:
Joe Frazier (2), George Foreman (Champ)

'75:
Chuck Wepner (5), Ron Lyle (3), Joe Bugner (5), Joe Frazier (3)

'76:
Jimmy Young (2), Ken Norton (1)

'80:
Larry Holmes (1) - Lost

'81:
Trevor Berbick (7) - Lost

28-4

Very close! Ali just edges it. Both guys missed out on a few that probably should have made it. Earnie Shavers, Henry Cooper, Lou Nova, Billy Conn I, Arturo Godoy II etc. Decided to just stick with the rules so it was less subjective and I couldnt be accused of bias. Speaking subjectively I feel the top level of Ali's wins (Frazier, Liston, Foreman) trumps Louis, or any other HW you can name.

As far as I know, no other HW comes close to these two, though to be fair I havent gone through them name by name.

Fair play on Ali having more top ten wins. Figured it was close just suspected Louis edged it not Ali.

I'm surprised you are that down on his skillset and ring IQ. He really was a brilliant boxer and thinker as well as athlete. No doubt his athleticism was built into his style just the same as Louis' power was built into his. Nobody would be the same without their best attribute so to me it makes little sense to ask what they would have if they didnt have it.

I don't see myself as down on Ali's abilities so much as I think his boxing skills are overhyped & his natural gifts are underconsidered.

Granted your natural gifts & the gifts you work hard to earn go hand in hand for everyone who competes & they can help or hinder us all depending on where are talents lie or don't lie in our trajectory in learning a sport or skill. So in that way I kinda see Ali as a RJJ type phenomenon where he was highly impressive at his physical prime, but came down to earth with age & his natural gifts tapering off.

I wouldn't say I'm negative with RJJ in thinking that way either. In fact I think RJJ was more impressive during his best years cuz he was doing what he did vs guys much more naturally skilled than the "dancing bears", as HWs are called in the amateur game, that Ali got to exploit one could argue.

But I mean it is what it is. Ali got gifted certain abilities & he was a big cat & got placed in a division where movement wins or loses less fights than any other division. Thus my term of Ali having a cheat code of sorts being a fast guy in a division not known for speed. So I guess I kinda view Ali has a guy who was going to excell to a high level no matter the extras you or I brought up somewhat on the luck of the draw more than him bring simply the best to ever do it at HW or any other weight as I think many too often leap to proclaim.

[QueensburyRules]

--- Ali also has more top ten losses.

Louis was a ranked heavy longer and his only losses to prime HOFers. On his worst day he ain't loosing to toothless Leon or prospect Berbick...

And both dwarf TUE who ain't even Qualified for Valhalla...Keeping it real!