What IF...

[hellfire508]

My Top Ten of "What If's"

10.-What if Salvador Sanchez hadn't had that wreck...

THAT should be number 1. He would have been another SRR IMO. He was amazing.

[Southpaw Stinger]

Prime to Prime
I pick Jefferies- Not because I'm racist but because I believe that Jefferies proved his abilities aganst more Contenders of the time (not that Johnson could- he was black nobody wanted to fight him).. Jefferies fought Fitzsimmons, Corbett, Sharkey...I'm not saying Johnson can't win but I believe prime Jefferies was Physically stronger and hit harder...noted though Johnson was a defensive "wizard" but I think in a really long fight Jefferies could wear Johnson out....

Definatly agree with that.

[K-DOGG]

I'll choose a few and have a go.

1) Over a scheduled 45 rounds I would still pick Johnson. Jeffries soaked up punishment in his fights against Corbett, Fitzimmons and Sharkey neither who were comparable to a prime Johnson. Jeffries would force the action and score more to the body looking to wear Johnson down, but Johnson was very relaxed and confident and I still see him biding his time and picking Jeffries apart.

2) Schmeling would have returned to Germany and not left his homeland to defend it. Some predictable defences against European challengers with limited opportunities for US contenders (no blacks, no ***s and no contenders who had ***ish managers ). With the onset of WW2 there would be no one to challenge Schmeling and the title would be in hiatus. An ugly messy situation with the belt in turmoil for a few years. Thank you Joe Louis!

3) Depends how long Ali went to prison. If it was for 3 years or more forget it. Foreman reigns for awhile, probably into the 80's if he stays in shape and focused.

4) Kevin Rooney was his trainer, not a miracle worker. Many fighters lose good trainers and continue to have success. Tyson didn't have a champion's mindset, that's what hurt him. Don King may have ripped Tyson off financially but he also extended his career in the 90's by providing easy fights (Razor Ruddock the exception) with big money pay-per-view fights against paper noneties like Henry Tillman, Peter McNeeley, Bruce Seldon and Frank Bruno (again!) while openly avoiding the top fighters of the time like Holyfield, Foreman, Bowe, and Lewis.

5) Leonard and Pryor is a great and exciting match-up with Leonard winning. Harder puncher, quicker fists, more accurate combinations, taller, stronger and with the better chin and balance. Leonard leads in most categories but Pryor's underrated boxing ability, deceptive reach (same as Leonard's) use of unpredictable angles, aggression, heart, stamina and workrate give "The Hawk" an early lead before Leonard's adaptibilty solves him and wins by late stoppage (gradually wears Pryor down and opens him up with left hook body shots) UD, or catches Pryor flush coming in and finishes him. Rounds 1-5 provides ultimate fireworks.

7) I would still pick Lewis over Bowe due in part to the psychological advantage of having stopped him in The Olympics. Bowe started to gradually regress after he won the title and his poor defence would allow Lewis to catch him and KO him.

8) Holmes-Weaver II would have been a good match-up with Weaver being more experienced and confident in the rematch and Holmes starting to slide a little. A tough fight with Holmes prevailing once again likely by decision. Michael Dokes and Greg Page were the two most talented heavyweights contenders around during Holmes's reign and both had the height, reach, left jab and boxing ability which were the proven ingredients to trouble Holmes. I think on a given night either guy with his 'A' game could have upset Holmes by decision. A shame neither fight was ever made.

10) Salvador Sanchez. A beautiful and complete fighter who had every tool in his arsenal. Sanchez would have likely fought a unification match with Eusebio Pedroza which would have been an extremely difficult matchup. I'll pick Sanchez by very narrow margin before he rules the feathers until he outgrows the division. Look at the rankings of the early 80's. There was no one on the horizon that matched Sanchez at that time although Azumah Nelson was really close.

Up in weight to junior lightweight I would pick Sanchez over the top guys like Rocky Lockridge, Boza Edwards, Bazooka Limon, Bobby Chacon and Rolando Navarette. A move up to lightweight is where it gets sticky. I would see tough fights with Hector Camacho, Edwin Rosario, Jose Luis Ramirez and later Julio Ceasar Chavez and Pernell Whittaker. I can see him losing fights with at least one of those top guys. In any event Sanchez would still be a top fighter into the late 80's at the very least.

Sanchez was tall for a featherweight (5'7), had a broad shouldered frame, was a solid puncher and was fundamentally solid so he is a very likely candidate to move up and have success in higher weight categories. I don't see him moving up as high as junior welter though.

Quality thread brother K.

Great Post Sabbath.

[oldgringo]

a couple of points i'll briefly give my opinion on:

i believe ray leonard did just about everything better than aaron pryor and i don't see him losing to pryor at 147. he was bigger, naturally more powerful with his punches, had quicker hands, was very intelligent, had a great chin, etc. i just cannot see him beating or even outworking ray in any format. his best chance is if ray fought him like he fought duran in their first bout, but even then i'd take leonard.

had sanchez not died i believe he would have been beaten by a much more well schooled azumah nelson later on in their respective careers. nelson hadn't fought ANYBODY of any note to prepare him for the machine that was sal, and he still gave sal hell with his strength and determination. once he truely learned how to box he was a master of many aspects of the game and was one of the most well rounded little guys in the sport.

once he refined his skills and knowledge he teamed that with his excellent strength...then he became a monster. he would beat sal in an excellent rematch.

[SABBATH]

had sanchez not died i believe he would have been beaten by a much more well schooled azumah nelson later on in their respective careers. nelson hadn't fought ANYBODY of any note to prepare him for the machine that was sal, and he still gave sal hell with his strength and determination. once he truely learned how to box he was a master of many aspects of the game and was one of the most well rounded little guys in the sport.

once he refined his skills and knowledge he teamed that with his excellent strength...then he became a monster. he would beat sal in an excellent rematch.

I re-watched their classic fight last night after my post and wrestled with the same thoughts. My final conclusion was that Sanchez would have left the featherweight division after a Pedroza unification match leaving Nelson to rule the feathers and Sanchez would have always been a little bigger and stronger. Azumah was physically smaller in build and Sanchez was able to seriously hurt him several times before KO'ing him in their fight although Nelson did hurt Sanchez and was coming on late before being KO'd. I would never rule out Nelson re-matching with Sanchez and winning. Azumah was a truly great fighter, one of my favourites.

[Brassangel]

What if Ali never had a layoff? Would he still have had so much trouble with Joe Frazier? How long would he have been champion?

The Patterson-Marciano scenario is one of my favorites. Floyd had quick hands and great boxing skill. He likely would have given Marciano a lesson. Then again, Floyd couldn't take much of a punch, and Rocky could punch all night long.

As for Tyson, I don't think it's the loss of Rooney that doomed him. It was the "invincibility" complex he had built up around himself. Killed any hope of heart, adaptability, and ring generalship he showed at least the slightest ability to learn before becoming champion. Even with King he showed signs of hope against Ruddock, but threw it away by becoming a criminal by trade.

I think that Johnson's win over Jeffries is vastly overrated. I would like to see them duke it out in their respective primes.

[Brassangel]

Also, how great would Foreman have been considered if he never won the title in his 40's?

[Azteca]

very well said, oldgringo. just to give my opinion a little bit:

I have watched, i mean REALLY watched a lot of salvador sanchez lately. i am coming to the opinion that he may be the best ALL ROUND fighter I have seen, ever. his lead right was almost impossible to block or avoid, it seemed. his chin was of the utmost sturdiness and his footwork pure poetry. he's like a 126lb Ali without the flash but with a big punch and a whole range of punches beyond the straight 1-2 (i love ali but his punch variety was almost nonexistent)

all round, I think he's better than leonard, robinson etc. as an all round package - power, skills, speed, punch, chin, defence, ring smarts- the only boxer I can think of that may compete is Duran.

[Azteca]

a couple of points i'll briefly give my opinion on:

i believe ray leonard did just about everything better than aaron pryor and i don't see him losing to pryor at 147. he was bigger, naturally more powerful with his punches, had quicker hands, was very intelligent, had a great chin, etc. i just cannot see him beating or even outworking ray in any format. his best chance is if ray fought him like he fought duran in their first bout, but even then i'd take leonard.

i like the way you think, kid. really i do, but i have a sneaking su****ion you weren't around at the time this fight was mentioned. in order to fully understand what happened, you had to of been there at the time when people wanted pryor - leonard.

what i am talking about is the window of opportunity at 140-147. let's face it, leonard was where the money was and he was the one calling the shots. don't get me wrong, i am a great fan of leonard, however, one of the most manipulative fighters ever to have donned some gloves. in my collection i have loads of interviews as well as 2000+ bouts, one of these interviews is with leonard only a couple of years ago, he was being very candid about his whole career. no topic was out of bounds.

leonard goes on to say that for the montreal olympics, 'i moved out of pryor's weight catagory, to avoid him, the man was too dangerous.' he went on to add 'after i captured the welterweight title, pryor asked me out but i felt he was too dangerous an opponent at that stage of my career.' the interviewer states he feels a lot of people listening might find that surprising, leonard states, i don't think many realise how good aaron was, he was lethal. don't get me wrong, i would have fought him, but at that stage i wasn't ready. ask Tommy, I think he would agree with me.' leonard starts laughing...

for these reasons and these reasons alone i feel you are not giving pryor enough credit.

[oldgringo]

I don't think Sal was physically stronger than Nelson whatsoever. Nelson may have been shorter, but I thought he had a clear edge in his strength. Sanchez was just so much more well rounded at that time that he was able to do a lot of things to Nelson that he hadn't seen before.

By the time they both got to 130 it would have been an even as all hell match in my opinion. Zoom had a knack for better performances in his rematches. Sanchez was a more agile, fluid guy...Nelson had the sheer strength. I always just felt that if he was able to perform that well against Sal being that inexperienced that he'd do much better his second go around.

I really wish it would have happened.