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scale the greats 1-10

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  • #91
    I am simply of the belief that he had as good a chance as any, regardless of the naysayers. It's not based on mystique, simply upon careful observation. The Ali mystique is far larger than Tyson's, as Tyson's tends to go from one end of the spectrum to the other. While I know that you are a crazy hugger of Ali's era, like butterfly with better information, I'm not going to hold the "mystique" factor against you. Rather, I will continue to discuss whatever topic tickles my fancy for the time being, and while that topic was pretty much a dead one for me as of last week, it did happen to show it's face again. Just because a few people have made up their minds about it, doesn't mean that it isn't worth discussing. A few minds set in stone doesn't make the situation set in stone.

    I always find it interesting as well, how people on this site will ignore the in-depth posts full of detail and research, education opinions and facts, to take one line from a post, make a shabby attempt to tear it apart (usually resulting in the blatant insults of the poster), and then consider it acceptable as a counterpoint. What's more is the 2-3 people who will follow that post with things like, "..Good post..." ignoring what has been said in oversighted fashion simply because they don't like to read.

    I have attempted, whenever attacked, to return to the main thread topic for the sake of keeping it in it's place, but some feel the need to attack the character of the poster and not the information presented. I have made it obvious on various threads, that while you (SABBATH) are a gigantic hater of Mike Tyson (and therefore, guys like mystikal, Yaman, etc.), you rarely post anything intelligent in my direction and accuse me of being a fanboy of the same calibur. Seeing as how I don't have a favorite era, or really a favorite fighter, I am viewing his career more openly than most. This will be a continuing trend as this generation dies out and the die-hards of the 60's and 70's finally realize that just because television finally became a staple in every household (pre-pay-per-view) during this time, doesn't mean that it was the best or deepest era.

    There were a lot of great fighters with similar abilities, and exaggerated styles trading punches, which made for some very entertaining clashes. It was also the first time that boxing, which used to be the prize of the sporting world, could be viewed by everyone around the world with more ready accessibility. It's easy for anyone to see that this creates a lot of buzz, a lot of hype, and a lot of expectations. As time would have it, however, the fighters became more defensive, more counterpunch savvy, and the trademark styles started to slip out of the scene. This gave off the illusion that the fighters weren't as talented as the ones from the 70's, which is complete hogwash to the trained eye.

    Maybe I'm the only one on this site that feels this way, but that doesn't make me incorrect. I refuse to base my inclination on personal preferences, but rather, on the observable. One has to challenge the ways of society and what is viewed as the norm, or else we just become apart of the repetitious fold. This goes beyond the accepted opinons of boxing, into many things that are often taught in a presupposed fashion.

    I am probably wasting my efforts here, as usual, since this post is likely too long for anyone to read all the way through.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Brassangel
      I always find it interesting as well, how people on this site will ignore the in-depth posts full of detail and research, education opinions and facts, to take one line from a post, make a shabby attempt to tear it apart.
      Writing a page full of opinionated drivel and trying to pass it off as in-depth, researched and educated does little to mask the fact that your analytical understanding of boxing, boxers or it's history for that matter leave much to be desired. As someone who has amassed a respectable fight film and literary library in the last 30 years it doesn't take me long to seperate the knowledgeable (Yogi, Kid Achilles, K-Dogg for example) from the less knowledgeable members like yourself.

      Most of your reasoning and logic is so flawed it does nothing more than illustrate that while you know very little, you are under the false impression that you actually do. Here's just one of your most recent ridiculous offerings:

      "...as time would have it, however, the fighters became more defensive, more counterpunch savvy, and the trademark styles started to slip out of the scene. This gave off the illusion that the fighters weren't as talented as the ones from the 70's, which is complete hogwash to the trained eye..."

      Do you really put any thought into posting such nonsense? With this kind of deductive reasoning and logic, a 30's era heavyweight (Joe Louis) would be inferior to a 'modern' heavyweight like John Ruiz or Hasim Rachman. Maybe Ray Robinson being great is an illusion also as he competed in the caveman era of the 40's and 50's. And what "trained eye" do you have?

      If I choose to defend particular fighters against the ignorant, uneducated and uninformed, that doesn't make me a "crazy hugger" unless you consider yourself a "crazy Tyson hugger" for referring to me as "dumbass" when I posted a sportswriter's assesment of Tyson (not my own), which by the way was not the worst account of Tyson I could have offered up to this forum. Then again you've started no less than three Tyson fantasy threads in which you have picked him over both Ali and Louis in dream match-ups. Strange coming from a guy that claims he doesn't really have a "favourite fighter."

      I often exchange my views and opinions with knowledgeable and respected members of the boxing media (both print and television), boxing historians and members of the International Boxing Research Organization. I have also authored published boxing articles, which have attracted the interest of Sports Illustrated and Ring Magazine and was recently offered the job of boxing correspondent by one of the top boxing websites. I don't believe I have an 'untrained' eye. While you may choose to dismiss my views as "butterfly with better information" these respected and knowledgeable members of the boxing fraternity do not.

      Many of my views have been both formulated and rienforced from meeting and speaking to fighters like Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier, Lennox Lewis, Sugar Ray Leonard, Aaron Pryor, Carmen Basilio, Willie Pep etc.... I have also been fortunate enough to gain inside information about Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Tyson etc...from speaking one on one at length with their opponents George Chuvalo as well as Tyson opponent Conroy Nelson.

      You might want to actually try digesting some of what you read on these forums before being so quick to dismiss the source.

      By the way here's the most recent top ten ATG heavyweight listing compiled by the historians at IBRO in 2005.
      1. Joe Louis
      2. Muhammad Ali
      3. Jack Johnson
      4. Jack Dempsey
      5. Rocky Marciano
      6. Larry Holmes
      7. James J. Jeffries
      8. George Foreman
      9. Sonny Liston
      10. Joe Frazier
      By my count that's 4 out of 10 that reigned in the 70's. Why don't you drop them a line and tell them their list is 'hogwash to the trained eye'. IBRO can be reached at dan@ibroresearch.com . I'm sure they'll have a good laugh at your expense.
      Last edited by SABBATH; 06-06-2006, 10:24 PM.

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      • #93
        Many of my views have been both formulated and rienforced from meeting and speaking to fighters like Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier, Sugar Ray Leonard, Aaron Pryor, Carmen Basilio, Willie Pep etc.... I have also been fortunate enough to gain inside information about Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Tyson etc...from speaking one on one at length with George Chuvalo as well as Tyson opponent Conroy Nelson.
        But you're also a die hard Ozzy Osbourne fan, smasher lmao.
        Dont try to make people think you are some kind of boxing historician with a ''boxing library'' even though you get your crap out of boxrec.com. Your opinions always have a biased personal feeling behind it because of your hate and love for fighters. Get out of the closet Ozboy.
        Last edited by BKM-; 06-06-2006, 11:20 AM.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Yaman
          But you're also a die hard Ozzy Osbourne fan, smasher lmao.
          Dont try to make people think you are some kind of boxing historician with a ''boxing library'' even though you get your crap out of boxrec.com. Your opinions always have a biased personal feeling behind it because of your hate and love for fighters. Get out of the closet Ozboy.
          Introducing the posterboy for proving my point about the ignorant, uneducated and uninormed.....Yaman. Too bad for you because I had some interesting Tyson insight and stories I was about to share but I'll reserve them for those that will listen to them....

          In the meantime find out who Corrie Sanders is...
          Last edited by SABBATH; 06-06-2006, 11:27 AM.

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          • #95
            future great
            pacquiao barrera morales
            speed 10 9 9
            power 10 9 9
            skill 9 10 10
            defense 8 9 8
            stamina 10 9 9
            chin 10 10 10
            heart 10 9 8

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by videogamesntoys
              future great
              pacquiao barrera morales
              speed 10 9 9
              power 10 9 9
              skill 9 10 10
              defense 8 9 8
              stamina 10 9 9
              chin 10 10 10
              heart 10 9 8
              That is good, except for chin and heart. Are you serious? Erik Morales has the biggest heart in boxing! He deserves a 10, hands down. He is up there with Frazier and Holyfield. I say for heart: Barrera - 8, Pacquiao - 9.5, Morales - 10. As for chin, Morales has a better chin that Barrera, and Pac's is probably around the same. I say Barrera - 9, Pac and Morales 10.

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              • #97
                i bet to differ on who had the fast hands in the heavyweight division ever and this is with some power

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                • #98
                  Ive actually seen Ali hit the heavybag faster... And thats in training camp for FOTC... 1971!

                  In this and Tysons fights i have never seen him show the kind of speed shown by Ali against London... i have never seen a HW display that kind of speed. Tyson definately has the best combination of handspeed and power there is, not so far behind is Joe Louis.
                  Last edited by Heckler; 06-06-2006, 08:44 PM.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Heckler
                    Ive actually seen Ali hit the heavybag faster... And thats in training camp for FOTC... 1971!

                    In this and Tysons fights i have never seen him show the kind of speed shown by Ali against London... i have never seen a HW display that kind of speed.

                    video please! of ali hiting the bag faster. since i tend to mimic tysons style sometimes i mix it up and throw shots with my power behind them and im lightning fast.jus imagine if tyson did it.

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                    • I have a DVD documentary ... ALI: THE GREATEST which shows him training before the FOTC. I have no idea how to get that clip from the DVD to my computer.

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