Most overrated boxer in history?

[Kid Achilles]

I'm sure that buddy of yours knows more than all the boxing historians in the world.

[brownpimp88]

I'm sure that buddy of yours knows more than all the boxing historians in the world.

no but i was riding rocky's **** before he basically told me the truth about rocky. He also hooked me up with ****loads of footage during the 20's-30's era. Some of this footage includes greb sparring like a ****** and the lack of fundamentle boxing skill that dempsey didnt have.

[RockyMarcianofan00]

Heh this Thread brings back memories of all the times me and about 4 other people fought with Butterfly because of how much he underrates Marciano...

I still go with my orginal post-

Thee most overrated of all time as said before by me and others is no other then Jack Johnson. Jack Johnson was a giant for his times at 6'0. He fought bums, he fought in a much much weaker time then Marciano so don't go there. He used very very light gloves and still didn't do the damage of fighters that came after him.

Johnson fought many light heavyweights, and middleweights. Many of his fights even right up until he won the heavyweight title only had a couple fights. Some of his fights were against guys who only fought him and then retired. His biggest fight was against an obviously past his prime James J. Jefferies.

you think i'm lying about who he fought just look at his record for yourself
http://boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=1187

I'm very confident that if Jack Johnson was white nobody would of heard his name. Not a top10 fighter.

Granted he was a good historical figure, he went where no man had gone before (black man) and he broke the color barrier. Could historical figure, very overrated fighter.

[butterfly1964]

Thee most overrated of all time as said before by me and others is no other then Jack Johnson. Jack Johnson was a giant for his times at 6'0. He fought bums, he fought in a much much weaker time then Marciano so don't go there. He used very very light gloves and still didn't do the damage of fighters that came after him.

Johnson fought many light heavyweights, and middleweights. Many of his fights even right up until he won the heavyweight title only had a couple fights. Some of his fights were against guys who only fought him and then retired. His biggest fight was against an obviously past his prime James J. Jefferies.

you think i'm lying about who he fought just look at his record for yourself
http://boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=1187

I'm very confident that if Jack Johnson was white nobody would of heard his name. Not a top10 fighter.

Granted he was a good historical figure, he went where no man had gone before (black man) and he broke the color barrier. Could historical figure, very overrated fighter.

Rocky'fan, that was, is, and forever will be a very dumb post. Let me break it down for you.

Thee most overrated of all time as said before by me and others is no other then Jack Johnson. Jack Johnson was a giant for his times at 6'0. He fought bums, he fought in a much much weaker time then Marciano so don't go there. He used very very light gloves and still didn't do the damage of fighters that came after him.

Johnson was closer to 6'-2", and just because you never heard of a fighter that fought a long time ago, doesn't make them bums. If anything, it shows your lack of boxing knowledge.

And for the most part, at least most of Johnson's opponents weren't past their primes like Marciano's were.

And if your gonna attack Johnson's punching power, then why don't you attack Ali's or Larry Holmes'. Many people still consider them great fighters, despite their "inability to devastate". Johnson wasn't huge on power, but huge on skill and intelligence, and that's what made him great.

Johnson fought many light heavyweights, and middleweights. Many of his fights even right up until he won the heavyweight title only had a couple fights. Some of his fights were against guys who only fought him and then retired. His biggest fight was against an obviously past his prime James J. Jefferies.

you think i'm lying about who he fought just look at his record for yourself
http://boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=1187

The records are inconclusive and change all the time. His opponents appeared to have had just a few fights, but that's because it was so long ago that boxrec does not possess every single fight that these people had.

Oh, by the way, Marciano and others fought light heavy's and middle's as well. It's not an oddity.

I'm very confident that if Jack Johnson was white nobody would of heard his name. Not a top10 fighter.

This may be the most idiotic part of this post yet. If Johnson was white he would actually have been ranked higher because he would have had a longer title reign. Jim Jeffries ducked him because he was black, and if he was white, they would have fought as early as 1904, Johnson winning, no doubt. He would have had the title up to 1915, which is just as long as Louis' reign. Not only that, but he probably would have been the first heavyweight to regain the title (over Jess Willard), seeing as how Johnson didn't train for that fight much anyway. Him being white would give him that opportunity to regain the title. He would have reigned until Dempsey won the title. Him being black has nothing to do with his ranking. He still won the title, and defended it eight times, and revolutionalized boxing wth his defensive style, being light years ahead of his time.

Granted he was a good historical figure, he went where no man had gone before (black man) and he broke the color barrier. Could historical figure, very overrated fighter.

Other fighters are built up because of their historical significance besides Johnson. Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Jack Dempsey, Mike Tyson, and a lot of others. If you attack Johnson for that, then why not attack them too?

[Emon723]

Jack johnson has to be the most overrated in history, i do seen old clips of some of his fights and couldnt understand why most boxing historians rate him at top5, even as high as number 2 behind Ali, but looking at his record, he fought a smaller tommy burns, who weight in somewhere at light HW limit, an old jim jeffries, coming off a 5 year layoff, middleweight stanley ketchel was able to dropped him, marvin hart beat him, he reign for 7 years but how long did he defend his title, most of his fights went into no decision. yes he must be great in his era, but comparing him and to say he was better than frazier or foreman is ridiculous, Tyson once commented he didnt think johnson could be competitive in today's HW standards coz he was trained to throw one punch at the time and not a variety of combination of punches.

[Southpaw Stinger]

Rocky'fan, that was, is, and forever will be a very dumb post. Let me break it down for you.



Johnson was closer to 6'-2", and just because you never heard of a fighter that fought a long time ago, doesn't make them bums. If anything, it shows your lack of boxing knowledge.

And for the most part, at least most of Johnson's opponents weren't past their primes like Marciano's were.

And if your gonna attack Johnson's punching power, then why don't you attack Ali's or Larry Holmes'. Many people still consider them great fighters, despite their "inability to devastate". Johnson wasn't huge on power, but huge on skill and intelligence, and that's what made him great.



The records are inconclusive and change all the time. His opponents appeared to have had just a few fights, but that's because it was so long ago that boxrec does not possess every single fight that these people had.

Oh, by the way, Marciano and others fought light heavy's and middle's as well. It's not an oddity.



This may be the most idiotic part of this post yet. If Johnson was white he would actually have been ranked higher because he would have had a longer title reign. Jim Jeffries ducked him because he was black, and if he was white, they would have fought as early as 1904, Johnson winning, no doubt. He would have had the title up to 1915, which is just as long as Louis' reign. Not only that, but he probably would have been the first heavyweight to regain the title (over Jess Willard), seeing as how Johnson didn't train for that fight much anyway. Him being white would give him that opportunity to regain the title. He would have reigned until Dempsey won the title. Him being black has nothing to do with his ranking. He still won the title, and defended it eight times, and revolutionalized boxing wth his defensive style, being light years ahead of his time.



Other fighters are built up because of their historical significance besides Johnson. Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Jack Dempsey, Mike Tyson, and a lot of others. If you attack Johnson for that, then why not attack them too?

what do you mean Johnson beating Jeffries no doubt? how can you be sure of that? Johnson in his prime was an extremely tough durable fight. The version that fought Johnson in 1910 had been inactive for many years and had to drop over 100lbs for the fight. Not to mention his only reason for fighting was that he was pressured out of retirement to be the great "white hope"

I'm not saying Johnson wouldn't have beaten him I'm just saying you can't make such a judgement on a fight they would have in 1904, based on a 1910 match up.

[butterfly1964]

what do you mean Johnson beating Jeffries no doubt? how can you be sure of that? Johnson in his prime was an extremely tough durable fight. The version that fought Johnson in 1910 had been inactive for many years and had to drop over 100lbs for the fight. Not to mention his only reason for fighting was that he was pressured out of retirement to be the great "white hope"

I'm not saying Johnson wouldn't have beaten him I'm just saying you can't make such a judgement on a fight they would have in 1904, based on a 1910 match up.

Jeffries would never have beaten Johnson. Jeffries fought from a low croutch, and Johnson loves to fight people who fight low. Jeffries doesn't have the hand and foot speed Johnson does. Johnson was light years ahead of his time. There's a reason why he wasn't really taken into good fights at that time. It's not because his opponents weren't any good, but because his style was something new and nobody knew how to deal with it, same thing with Dempsey in the '20s, Louis in the '40s, Ali in the '60s, and Tyson in the '80s. Johnson toyed with Jeffries throughout the fight, and could have trounced him as early as the fourth round. I think even if he was in his prime, Jeffries wouldn't have enough tools to beat him.

[RockyMarcianofan00]

Rocky'fan, that was, is, and forever will be a very dumb post. Let me break it down for you.



Johnson was closer to 6'-2", and just because you never heard of a fighter that fought a long time ago, doesn't make them bums. If anything, it shows your lack of boxing knowledge.

And for the most part, at least most of Johnson's opponents weren't past their primes like Marciano's were.

And if your gonna attack Johnson's punching power, then why don't you attack Ali's or Larry Holmes'. Many people still consider them great fighters, despite their "inability to devastate". Johnson wasn't huge on power, but huge on skill and intelligence, and that's what made him great.



The records are inconclusive and change all the time. His opponents appeared to have had just a few fights, but that's because it was so long ago that boxrec does not possess every single fight that these people had.

Oh, by the way, Marciano and others fought light heavy's and middle's as well. It's not an oddity.



This may be the most idiotic part of this post yet. If Johnson was white he would actually have been ranked higher because he would have had a longer title reign. Jim Jeffries ducked him because he was black, and if he was white, they would have fought as early as 1904, Johnson winning, no doubt. He would have had the title up to 1915, which is just as long as Louis' reign. Not only that, but he probably would have been the first heavyweight to regain the title (over Jess Willard), seeing as how Johnson didn't train for that fight much anyway. Him being white would give him that opportunity to regain the title. He would have reigned until Dempsey won the title. Him being black has nothing to do with his ranking. He still won the title, and defended it eight times, and revolutionalized boxing wth his defensive style, being light years ahead of his time.



Other fighters are built up because of their historical significance besides Johnson. Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Jack Dempsey, Mike Tyson, and a lot of others. If you attack Johnson for that, then why not attack them too?

Butterfly...You say I have limited boxing knowledge because of what I say, yet what I say is the truth....I understand that fighters may fought and not been recorded, but Jack Johnson really isn't as special as everyone makes him out to be....Its the fact that he was black and blacks were thought to be "inferior" in those times that distorts his image.....

You attack me but Johnson is one of the most overrated fighters with a legacy that is blown out of proportion, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that those fighters did in fact only fight once....

You can't even say some of the fighters he fought weren't bums...How does it show my limited knowledge..Many of them were bums, having only one or two fights...

Don't take my response and act like I'm belittling him because he's from an early era in boxing, because I don't belittle people because of there era, I just look at fact...and they're in my original post...your going to defend him because you "idealize" him but once again refer to my post....

[butterfly1964]

Butterfly...You say I have limited boxing knowledge because of what I say, yet what I say is the truth....I understand that fighters may fought and not been recorded, but Jack Johnson really isn't as special as everyone makes him out to be....Its the fact that he was black and blacks were thought to be "inferior" in those times that distorts his image.....

You attack me but Johnson is one of the most overrated fighters with a legacy that is blown out of proportion, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that those fighters did in fact only fight once....

You can't even say some of the fighters he fought weren't bums...How does it show my limited knowledge..Many of them were bums, having only one or two fights...

Don't take my response and act like I'm belittling him because he's from an early era in boxing, because I don't belittle people because of there era, I just look at fact...and they're in my original post...your going to defend him because you "idealize" him but once again refer to my post....

Again, why not criticize Dempsey's cometition or someone else, not just Johnson? Dempsey's boxrec.com record is similar to Johnson (many fighters seeming to have had their pro debut), but I don't see you trashing him or Jeffries or any guys from around that time, just Johnson.

Some of Johnson's opponents were bums, but so were some of Ali's, Louis', Frazier's, Foreman's, Marciano's, Tyson's, Lewis', etc, etc, etc. Why not go after these guys? Nobody fights great fighters right down the line, you have to run into a few tomato cans eventually.

You keep mentioning this black thing, but you still have explained why being black supposedly boosted his legacy. There were so many fighters, who took a page out of Jack Johnson's style and used it later on to their advantage. Guys like Ali, Louis, Walcott and others used certain things in theri own personal style that Johnson used and were successful, so if Johnson was a poor fighter, then they wouldn't do that.

If you ever hope to win against me, you better find a better argument, buahahahahahaha!!

[RockyMarcianofan00]

Again, why not criticize Dempsey's cometition or someone else, not just Johnson? Dempsey's boxrec.com record is similar to Johnson (many fighters seeming to have had their pro debut), but I don't see you trashing him or Jeffries or any guys from around that time, just Johnson.

Some of Johnson's opponents were bums, but so were some of Ali's, Louis', Frazier's, Foreman's, Marciano's, Tyson's, Lewis', etc, etc, etc. Why not go after these guys? Nobody fights great fighters right down the line, you have to run into a few tomato cans eventually.

You keep mentioning this black thing, but you still have explained why being black supposedly boosted his legacy. There were so many fighters, who took a page out of Jack Johnson's style and used it later on to their advantage. Guys like Ali, Louis, Walcott and others used certain things in theri own personal style that Johnson used and were successful, so if Johnson was a poor fighter, then they wouldn't do that.

If you ever hope to win against me, you better find a better argument, buahahahahahaha!!

Ok well I was half asleep with my last post which is why it was so "jostled" around......

Alright lets begin...*yawn*

Alright well Why not criticize Dempsey...
Well for starters he fought guys who were more reputable then most of Jack Johnson's opponents...Thats not because I don't know people that Johnson fought but because Dempsey actually did....
Jack Sharkey
Jess Willard (who actually did fight Johnson however Johnson lost likewise Dempsey won)
Luis Firpo (though I'm not entirely sure of his status at the time)
Gene Tunney (^^^^)

You don't see me trashing Jefferies, likewise you don't really see me promoting his record as godly either. I can see where people do though, He was the linear champion and lost to Johnson well past his prime...However I never really bothered to learn to much about Jefferies and don't promote him....

Trashing guys from Johnson's time like who?

Some of Johnson's opponents were bums, but so were some of Ali's, Louis', Frazier's, Foreman's, Marciano's, Tyson's, Lewis', etc, etc, etc. Why not go after these guys? Nobody fights great fighters right down the line, you have to run into a few tomato cans eventually.

How many times have I said this exact statement to you, only to be replied that "Ali has only fought one guy with a negative record..." I'm quite aware of this and have said this same thing, but Johnson has basically fought bums throughout his career....


Next..I have said why I keep mentioning the black thing....

"In the time of Johnson blacks were thought to be an inferior race of people, which is why they weren't allowed to play sports with whites (who were thought to be superior)...So because blacks were thought to be inferior, and a black fighter came out of no where and beat white guys who were thought to be superior people were in shock...This fighter even beat the "Great White Hope"...Because of these factors historical accounts can be sometimes exaggerated to make Johnson look better then he was because of that fact that he was supposed to be garbage....

There were so many fighters, who took a page out of Jack Johnson's style and used it later on to their advantage. Guys like Ali, Louis, Walcott and others used certain things in theri own personal style that Johnson used and were successful, so if Johnson was a poor fighter, then they wouldn't do that.

Notice how you said took a "page" out of his style...Which in turn means they adapted it to there liking/ making it better....It's the same in the case of Dempsey...Dempsey's style really wasn't perfect and guys like Marciano and Tyson took "pages" out of Dempsey's style and made it better...Marciano kept his hands up and took Dempsey's roll and improved it adapting it into his crouch, etc....

how was that, mind you I'm still alittle asleep