Ali vs. Tyson: out on a fragile limb.

[Heckler]

When defending the mystique of Ali and showcasing the flaws of Tyson this will often be the case. As someone who tries to look at every fighter as simply a man, who won overrated bouts at times and overcame others where they never should have triumphed, I'm a believer that style has a lot to do with it. Although Heckler is correct in assuming that there are a ton of factors involved here, that doesn't take away from the fact that, on tape (by comparison), this would be an extremely difficult style matchup for Ali.

Maybe I watch their films too often, but it's clear that neither Frazier, nor Liston, nor any of Ali's opponents moved with Tyson's speed, or attacked with such ferocity. Frazier didn't work harder than Tyson, he simply spread it out over the long rounds. That's in the category of preference more than it would be a liability. If a fighter concentrates that work rate, one can deny Ali his incredible ability to recover by crowding and constantly pressuring him. And don't compare this statement to the fight with Foreman, as Foreman's work rate was much slower than Tyson's, and it ran out of gas before Frazier's.

Once again, there were times when Tyson showed a (sad) lack of heart compared to the likes of Frazier, Marciano, etc., but not when he was going for the belt(s) the first time. He was focused, precise, and ready to go long rounds if necessary. He executed in the biggest match of his career by that point so well, however, that he walked away with a string of very short victories. How different would it be were Ali the champ, and Tyson was an up-and-comer hungry to be the youngest champion again? Yeah, I am nuts...

Yarrr...

Frazier was not as skilled as Tyson and i am not denying this. What i do deny, and refuse to agree with is the notion that Tyson would be the harder fight for Ali over a 71' Frazier. In my opinion Frazier was tougher, Frazier was a superior inside fighter and i completely disagree with the notion that Tyson whom was all too willing to coast on the inside was better in this regard. Against a top opponent, in a situation of adversity Joe Frazier often thrived and triumphed... Tyson never did this ONCE in his career and frankly i don't believe he could. Even from a stylistic point of view i don't believe giving Tyson the nod is easily justified... even Rooney and Jacobs were quoted picking Ali over Tyson in a dream fight (Ali: Through the eyes of the world).

[Heckler]

** Sabbath's dumber brother? Spinks was easily as good as Norton and many fighters Tyson beat are as good as Quarry and many better.

Holyfield, Lewis, Douglas are all after Tyson signed with King and additionally Holy and Lewis are post prison Tyson. Tyson was no longer a great fighter after signing with King. He had a 3 stooges corner working for him and wasn't training properly. He was just laying back and raking in the money that King confiscated.

What a complete load of bull****. Spinks may have been as good as Norton, i personally beg to differ. The fact of the matter is Spinks didn't fight, he lost the fight long before he stepped between those ropes. Please oh please list the fighters Tyson beat that are as good as Quarry and Norton?

[Heckler]

Arent you the same guy who went on and off about styles make fights? but when its about ali its a diffirent case right?

Styles make fights... show me where i have said this... mmmm you might find that in GEORGE FOREMAN VS MIKE TYSON/ROCKY MARICANO related threads. In that i noted that Foremans strengths and thus his style built around such strengths would prove to be too much of a challange for any swarmer we have seen... george foreman vs joe frazier is probably the best example of styles making fights there is. There are exceptions and i have never denied this.

[SABBATH]

Frazier didn't work harder than Tyson, he simply spread it out over the long rounds.

Frazier-Ali vs Tyson-Tucker : Frazier didn't work harder than Tyson?

Frazier-Quarry I vs Tyson-Holmes: Frazier didn't work harder than Tyson?

Frazier-Ellis I vs Tyson-Thomas: Frazier didn't work harder than Tyson?

Three prime championship fights of Frazier's up against three prime championship fights of Tyson's .

One that went the distance each, two mid-round KO's each.

I won't even factor in how superior an opponent Ali is compared to Tucker. You can judge that fight at face value as to who has the higher work rate between Frazier and Tyson.

Shoot...

[Brassangel]

Spinks gave up before he entered the ring with Tyson...probably true. But then Tyson entered the ring pretty nervous every time as well. Mike Tyson showed superior boxing ability, focus, and work rate by executing his game plan. Michael's game plan wasn't terrible either: he hoped to land right hands when Tyson came in, something that many have eluded would help Ali win this fantasy bout. Tyson didn't mindlessly slip inside, however, he kept his defensive wits about him and avoided the shots. It didn't take many of his own to end the fight, I suppose.

Ken Norton...yeah, this guy had dump butter running down his leg when he stepped into the ring with Foreman. I guess we can excuse him for giving up before the fight even started, and still consider him great. But any of Tyson's opponents who gave up before the fight had no right to be intimidated. He was only fast, powerful, explosive, hard to hit, blah blah blah... I would wager that Buster Douglas was intimidated going into their fight, he just managed to execute a fantastic fight plan, with incredible heart, and a lot of strange and unusual circumstances in his favor. Evander Holyfield, during an interview, said he was frightened going into both fights, saying, "I expected Mike to come out moving, avoiding my shots, and putting a lot of pressure on me, and that's intimidating. When the ball rang, however, he was flat footed, and he didn't do much to avoid my jabs. I knew then, it wasn't the Mike Tyson we all knew and I expected..." This is a great statement for what basically happened to Mike, not when he dumped Rooney, but once he unified the title. Even before this point, he still had lazy nights. Every fighter is bound to.

As far as what Rooney said about Ali vs. Tyson, Ali was quoted as saying about Tyson during the 80's, "He's a great champion; I don't think even I could have dealt with a fighter of his style and abilities...". That's one of the only times Ali ever said anything to that effect about a champion after his own career. When asked about Holyfield, Ali said he's too slow. When asked about Lennox Lewis and Bowe, Ali said he would have whooped them (he actually used the term "whooped"). I guess these statements show that it's just a matter of opinion.

This has clearly turned from an analytical thread into one where the proverbial regulars on both sides of Tyson's coin have come to duke it out. It's unfortunate that this has happened. I really hoped that it would be a continually informative and enlightening thread.

[SABBATH]

Frazier-Ali vs Tyson-Tucker : Frazier didn't work harder than Tyson?

Frazier-Quarry I vs Tyson-Holmes: Frazier didn't work harder than Tyson?

Frazier-Ellis I vs Tyson-Thomas: Frazier didn't work harder than Tyson?

Three prime championship fights of Frazier's up against three prime championship fights of Tyson's .

One that went the distance each, two mid-round KO's each.

I won't even factor in how superior an opponent Ali is compared to Tucker. You can judge that fight at face value as to who has the higher work rate between Frazier and Tyson.

Shoot...

Mr. Brassangel,

I've done a little legwork on your behalf. Here are some punchstat numbers from Heavyweight Champion Mike Tyson in his prime.

OPPONENT THROWN LANDED JABS LANDED
Tubbs ...........35.........16........14....... 3
Holmes.......... 33........ 16....... 11....... 3
Biggs.............38.........22........10........4

Now these punchats are on average per round. I chose 3 fights that Tyson competed in where fatigue had not set in, where he dominated and he won convincingly by KO. I'm sure the numbers in more competitive longer fights like the Smith and Tucker fights would be noticeably lower.

In any event, we can see that that the 'deadly accurate' Mike Tyson misses 50% of his punches. What is surprising is he misses Tony Tubbs so often, even though Tubbs, a big target and not known as an in-fighter stood flat footed and right in front of him.

The Mike Tyson jab that apparently had vanished by the time he lost to Douglas and was a factor in his decline is not really an effective offensive weapon at all for Tyson in his prime who averages only 3 jabs landed a round while missing a high percentage.

16-22 punches landed per round is by no means a high workrate against average fighters like Tubbs, Biggs and a diminished Larry Holmes.

To suggest that Tyson's workrate is superior to Frazier's is ludicrous.

To suggest that Tyson would land even the same much less more punches on a prime Ali at a higher % rate than he was able to land on average heavyweights like Biggs and Tubbs is also ludicrous.

[Yogi]

I'm not 100% sure, but from memory I believe Tyson had a per round average against Smith of 16 of 26 in total punches landed to thrown...Something like that.

It's shown at the beginning of the Tucker fight anyways.

[SABBATH]

I'm not 100% sure, but from memory I believe Tyson had a per round average against Smith of 16 of 26 in total punches landed to thrown...Something like that.

It's shown at the beginning of the Tucker fight anyways.

Thanks, I'll pop the VHS in and verify. Tyson's punch rate is consistant then with his other prime fights at 16-22 landed per round.

[Heckler]

Spinks gave up before he entered the ring with Tyson...probably true. But then Tyson entered the ring pretty nervous every time as well. Mike Tyson showed superior boxing ability, focus, and work rate by executing his game plan. Michael's game plan wasn't terrible either: he hoped to land right hands when Tyson came in, something that many have eluded would help Ali win this fantasy bout. Tyson didn't mindlessly slip inside, however, he kept his defensive wits about him and avoided the shots. It didn't take many of his own to end the fight, I suppose.

Ken Norton...yeah, this guy had dump butter running down his leg when he stepped into the ring with Foreman. I guess we can excuse him for giving up before the fight even started, and still consider him great. But any of Tyson's opponents who gave up before the fight had no right to be intimidated. He was only fast, powerful, explosive, hard to hit, blah blah blah... I would wager that Buster Douglas was intimidated going into their fight, he just managed to execute a fantastic fight plan, with incredible heart, and a lot of strange and unusual circumstances in his favor. Evander Holyfield, during an interview, said he was frightened going into both fights, saying, "I expected Mike to come out moving, avoiding my shots, and putting a lot of pressure on me, and that's intimidating. When the ball rang, however, he was flat footed, and he didn't do much to avoid my jabs. I knew then, it wasn't the Mike Tyson we all knew and I expected..." This is a great statement for what basically happened to Mike, not when he dumped Rooney, but once he unified the title. Even before this point, he still had lazy nights. Every fighter is bound to.

As far as what Rooney said about Ali vs. Tyson, Ali was quoted as saying about Tyson during the 80's, "He's a great champion; I don't think even I could have dealt with a fighter of his style and abilities...". That's one of the only times Ali ever said anything to that effect about a champion after his own career. When asked about Holyfield, Ali said he's too slow. When asked about Lennox Lewis and Bowe, Ali said he would have whooped them (he actually used the term "whooped"). I guess these statements show that it's just a matter of opinion.

This has clearly turned from an analytical thread into one where the proverbial regulars on both sides of Tyson's coin have come to duke it out. It's unfortunate that this has happened. I really hoped that it would be a continually informative and enlightening thread.

Quote Ali: 'Q: Do you think Tyson could beat you?
A: No - Ali in the 80's

'Now will people stop asking me if i could beat Mike Tyson' - Ali after the Buster Douglas fight

The quote you have provided is the only time i have ever come across Ali stating Tyson would beat him. But really, does it mean much? Does it make it true? No because fighters have a tendancy to be modest at times.

[LondonRingRules]

What a complete load of bull****. Spinks may have been as good as Norton, i personally beg to differ. The fact of the matter is Spinks didn't fight, he lost the fight long before he stepped between those ropes. Please oh please list the fighters Tyson beat that are as good as Quarry and Norton?

** Please?

Go please yourself junior. Spinks had never even been knocked down as far as I know much less KOed. Like I stated, MANY fighters Tyson beat are as good or better than Quarry.