A question to all of the sane members of this forum

[M26]

I would say Muhammad Ali had the stronger chin of the two. That's not taking anything away from George Foreman though. He had a great chin also.

[Frazier's 15th round]

I suggest you go back and watch Ali-Foreman again. Now, can you honestly say that Foreman won a single round? Ali hit him with hard shots, over and over and over and over, while Foreman could barely land a clean shot to Ali. There was one point where Foreman hit him with about 10 body shots in a row, and that might be the only round that Foreman even remotely came close to winning.

Ali exposed Foreman for the caveman that he is. Foreman would paw at Ali, but Ali leaned back, nailed George with some hard jabs and crosses, taunted him, toyed with him a bit, and repeated the process for 7 rounds. Foreman, like the ***** that he is, was too scared to get off the canvas. Ali made him look like an absolute clown that night. And then Young schools him 3 years later. George sees his vision, comes back, fights a bunch of roadsweepers, gets a lucky shot against Moorer to win the title, and then avoids B and C level fighters.

Foreman's power is unmatched, but his pawing technique looks horrible, and his stamina leaves something to be desired. You mention that Ali struggled with Doug Jones and Henry Cooper. Well, Foreman struggled with Levi Forte, Roberto Davila, and Everett Martin.

I won't get into the "gift" win about Frazier vs Bonavena, but Frazier dominated him from Round 3 on. He also easily beat him in the rematch.

[tommyhearns804]

M26 thanks for replying but could you please explain why you believe he had a better chin?Did you not read what i just typed?How could you have read it and then say Ali had a better chin?Let me do this one more time for you little kids out there.
1 Foreman was never knocked down with one punch while Ali was knocked down 4 times in his career with one punch.
2. Ali was hurt far more times in this career than Foreman was even though Foreman was the one moving forward and Ali was moving away which ment when Foreman was hit he was hi t harder.
3. Foreman is completely healthy today and lets just say Ali isn't.
4 Either you have to say Foreman was far tougher or he had a superior chin.

[Frazier's 15th round]

The ways to score a fight are effective aggression, defense, ring generalship, and clean hard punching. Foreman's aggression was not effective, as any time he goes to meet Ali, he's greeted by a few CLEAN HARD punches to the face while not returning any. Ali's defense is excellent, as he makes Foreman miss so many shots, while Foreman's defense is laughable. Finally, ring generalship. Ali rope-a-doped Foreman, so yes, he made Foreman fight his (Ali's) fight.

This was the same in Rounds 1-8. Ali won them all.

[K-DOGG]

K-Dogg if you are going to say M Moorer wasn't a true heavyweight even though most of his career he fought as a heavyweight them why do people insist that Marciano is a true heavyweight?But anyway K-Dogg Cooper did not punch harder than Ron Lyle period.Besides knocking down Ali who else did he knock down who is worth mentioning?And again if Moorer was just a cruiserweight then the same would be said about Cooper.
Holyfield never had Foreman out.I don't know what fight that kid was watching.Holyfield landed 25 punches in a row at one time and of course Foreman moved just like any other man who was punched by somebody like Holyfield 25 straight punches but was never hurt.Morrison ran like a woman once he realized his punches weren't hurting Foreman(This was right after Mercer knocked out Morrison so i am sure Morrison didn't want the same thing to happen to him again)But Morrison landed some big punches.
This is to the kid who said Alex Stewart couldn't punch..So is that why he has 43 wins 40 by ko?The man was a vicious puncher in his prime.Shannon Briggs is a hard puncher who did nothing to a older weaker slower Foreman.Here is something some of you don' get.The older you get the less fluid you have around your brain which is the reason you see older fighters getting knocked down more than did when they were younger.So if a old 40 plus year old Foreman had the chin to take those punches then a younger Foreman would have a even better chin.
Not only was Ali easier to hurt he was hurt more often.If you had any punch at all you could hurt Ali.He would just grab on say something ****** and clowned around pretending to not be hurt until his head cleared..And don't bring up that young knocked Foreman down.If you watched the fight you knew Foreman slipped and the man was dead tired it is like saying Ali couldnt take it to the body because Chuck Wepner dropped Ali with one body punch.We both know either Ali was off balanced or Wepner stepped on Ali's foot when he was pulling away.
How many of you think that a man like Cooper could knock Foreman down and almost out with one punch?Or other 180 pound fighters like Doug Jones?Moorer punched harder than either and landed punch after punch on a old Foreman but did Foreman appear to be hurt and didnt our buddy K-Dogg just say even though Moorer was a hard puncher he was still basically a hard puncher at the cruiserweight divsion?So how many cruiserweights do you believe could flatten Foreman with one shot?None of you right?So i proved my point Foreman had alot better chin that Ali did.

You're a funny guy. Moorer and Cooper were both blown up Cruiserweights by today's standards; and if you'd done your research properly, you'd know that most of Moorer's knock-outs came against light-heavyweights and inept heavyweights.

And though I agree it was exhaustion more than anything else that dropped Foreman against Young...he did "slip" over a straight right hand.

Holyfield-Foreman...go back and look at the closing seconds of the 9th round. If Vander's right had landed one minute before it did, Big George would have had a hard time lasting the round out without going down.

Steward had one of the most padded records I've ever seen as evidenced by his being beaten every time he stepped up in competition....if you say otherwise, you are as much as adimitting you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Not to mention, FYI...most of Stewart's knock-outs were due to accumulation of punishment on those second rate heavyweights...not one-punch power. Look it up.

"Not only was Ali easier to hurt he was hurt more often."...you have no proof of this. Ali fought and beat bigger punchers than Foreman ever faced, George being one of them....and most were in his second career after he had come down off his toes and took more shots. I've already listed them; but for your convenience and education, I'll do it again:

Liston (first career...would have said 2wice; but the second match didn't really last long enough to consider), Quarry (decent punching heavyweight with a good left hook...Ali beat him twice without getting hurt once.),Frazier (3 times), Foster, Foreman, Lyle, Norton (decent puncher...3 times), & Shavers (quite possibly the hardest punching man who ever lived and Ali was 35 when he fought and beat him without going down once) Of those big punchers, only Frazier dropped Ali, and that was in the last..15th...round of a grueling fight. Can see George lasting 15 rounds in a war like that?? I can't.

Foreman: Frazier (twice, thought Joe was shot in their second meeting..and trying to box), Norton (decent punching heavyweight who George moved back constantly as he did Frazier, preventing him to set himself to unleash with the most force), Lyle (Foreman dropped twice and in trouble on multiple occasions), Hernandez (not a big punching journeyman; but rocked Foreman shortly before Geroge closed the show..big right hand, look it up), Cooney (rocked George bad in the first), Ken Lakusta (not a big punching Canadian journeyman who rocked George with an overhand right...right before George finished him off), Holyfield (not a big punching heavyweight; but nearly had George out in the 9th), Morrison (superb punching heavyweight with a glass jaw who proceeded to pull a Carl Williams immation for 12 rounds only offering a pot shot here and there), Moorer (decent punching heavyweight with a glass jaw), Savarese (okay punching heavyweight with a padded record that lost everytime he stepped up), Briggs (decent punching heavyweight who ran like a girl for all of the fight and was given a gift decision while only offering a modest offense.

As you can see, I never said George didn't have a good jaw; but there is more evidence of Ali taking harder flush shots than Foreman...ergo, my decision that Ali had a better jaw.

IMO, if Shavers had landed the right hand on Foreman that he hit Ali with in the 2nd round, Foreman would have gone down and gone down hard and been finished off by the follow up assault.

[LondonRingRules]

IMO, if Shavers had landed the right hand on Foreman that he hit Ali with in the 2nd round, Foreman would have gone down and gone down hard and been finished off by the follow up assault.

** Shavers wouldn't last 1 min against George. He was a popular, powerful fighter, but slow and limited not to mention being weak jawed. Now, ain't you got a dress to press for the prom? You saw what happened against Tex Cobb, and Cobb is slower than Christmas on Vicodin and had limited power.

[K-DOGG]

** Shavers wouldn't last 1 min against George. He was a popular, powerful fighter, but slow and limited not to mention being weak jawed. Now, ain't you got a dress to press for the prom? You saw what happened against Tex Cobb, and Cobb is slower than Christmas on Vicodin and had limited power.

Not the point. The point being the right hand that landed. I'm not saying Shavers would have beaten Foreman in a fight...I'm saying THAT right hand would have flattened George...he might have gotten up as he did against Lyle; but if Ron could put him down...THAT Shaver's right hand sure as hell would have.

Please pay attention to the context.

[M26]

M26 thanks for replying but could you please explain why you believe he had a better chin?Did you not read what i just typed?How could you have read it and then say Ali had a better chin?Let me do this one more time for you little kids out there.
1 Foreman was never knocked down with one punch while Ali was knocked down 4 times in his career with one punch.
2. Ali was hurt far more times in this career than Foreman was even though Foreman was the one moving forward and Ali was moving away which ment when Foreman was hit he was hi t harder.
3. Foreman is completely healthy today and lets just say Ali isn't.
4 Either you have to say Foreman was far tougher or he had a superior chin.

1. Ali was sometimes knocked down with one punch, mainly because of his style of fighting. He went straight back, making it easier to send him to the canvas while he was off balance. Plus, you have to consider the fact that going down don't mean you have a lesser chin than the one that stays erect. Ali got right back up, so this does not prove Foreman had the stronger chin.

2. I never saw Ali hurt in his prime. He was hurt against Cooper as an underdeveloped 21-year-old, and against Frazier after many rounds of hard fighting. But his great recuperative abilities helped him recover. Foreman was not hurt because he fought tomato cans and/or he overwhelmed his foes so he never got into the deep end of the pool where he was at risk of getting hurt. When not being able to stop his opponents right away, he could be hurt, as we saw in the Lyle fight.

3. Ali is a sorry sight today, that's for sure. But this does not prove his chin to be of lower quality than that of Foreman. If anything, I would say it favors Alis chin. The logic is as follows - because of his great chin, he was never knocked out. Instead he took ALOT of hard punches to the head, especially in the late 70s. It was his ability to take punches that is the reason for his current health.

4. I have to disagree with you on this one, Tommyhearns..

[K-DOGG]

1. Ali was sometimes knocked down with one punch, mainly because of his style of fighting. He went straight back, making it easier to send him to the canvas while he was off balance. Plus, you have to consider the fact that going down don't mean you have a lesser chin than the one that stays erect. Ali got right back up, so this does not prove Foreman had the stronger chin.

2. I never saw Ali hurt in his prime. He was hurt against Cooper as an underdeveloped 21-year-old, and against Frazier after many rounds of hard fighting. But his great recuperative abilities helped him recover. Foreman was not hurt because he fought tomato cans and/or he overwhelmed his foes so he never got into the deep end of the pool where he was at risk of getting hurt. When not being able to stop his opponents right away, he could be hurt, as we saw in the Lyle fight.

3. Ali is a sorry sight today, that's for sure. But this does not prove his chin to be of lower quality than that of Foreman. If anything, I would say it favors Alis chin. The logic is as follows - because of his great chin, he was never knocked out. Instead he took ALOT of hard punches to the head, especially in the late 70s. It was his ability to take punches that is the reason for his current health.

4. I have to disagree with you on this one, Tommyhearns..

Fantastic Post!

[QueensburyRules]

If Foreman was knocked down 4 times in 81 fights and Ali was knocked down 4 times in 61 fights would you say because Ron Lyle knocked down Foreman yet didn't knock down Ali that Ali had the better chin yet Frazier knocked down Ali and hurt him many times but couldn't hurt Foreman?
Or would you look at who and how each each knocked down?Over their careers i am sure most of you would say Foreman fought the harder punchers and i am including his second career where he fought huge punchers with out being knocked down.And in the Lyle fight when Foreman was knocked down 2 times would most of you agree that If Ali would of went toe to toe with Lyle he would be knocked down as well?(Come on Henry Cooper a complete nobody did so the bigger harder punching Lyle would of if Ali engaged him)
Ali was also hurt tons of times by punchers who weren't in the same league as a Cooney or a Tommy Morrison like Foreman fought and yet Foreman seem to walk thru just about every boxer he fought punches.Ali also boxed more.Ali didn't try to **** out any quick knock outs which ment Foreman opened up himself to be hit more than Ali.In his prime Foreman wasn't but he did open himself up to be hit.
Does that mean Ali has a glass chin?No but it does mean Foreman has a better chin and is less likely to be hurt by a hard punch than Ali was.Anyway i want to see who responded to this.I don't see how this forum could of changed so quickly.I went a few months with out coming here posting anything and now that i am back it seems all of the people who i praised for making this the best boxing forum i ever been apart of are gone.But i know there has to be some new people here who know their boxing and are not here to vent their ******ity or ignorance.

- -Bit of a freestyle ramble with nano flashes of coherency.

Foreman has the better chin, punch, Olympic record, and as Frankie used to remind us before his demise, Big George did it his way from inception unlike Ali who always had handlers.