The AlexKid 'questions about punchers, chins, hiprotation etc.' superduper thread.

[young_robbed]

^^^ That's it.................

A right hook (from orthodox stance ) is not the same as an overhand right. Both can be "looping" sure, but they aren't the same. They can come from different angles. Overhand right comes from over the top, the other comes from the side and is obviously is a hook which is a different angle.

[AlexKid]

Maybe because Tyson knocked Holmes out and Shavers didn't.

Tyson took loads of punches to knock Larry unconscious, the final one to his chin, Shavers only needed one punch and it was to the side of the head. He did that against a young prime fast Larry.

Shavers hit harder than Tyson.

[Fury4daWIN]

Tyson took loads of punches to knock Larry unconscious, the final one to his chin, Shavers only needed one punch and it was to the side of the head. He did that against a young prime fast Larry.

Shavers hit harder than Tyson.

Except he didn't bloody well KO him, did he?

[Fury4daWIN]

Hey dummy, you don't think it goes beyond that? Stiverne got stopped by King and went 12 with wilder, you think King is a harder hitter?

The age of Holmes when Tyson KO'd him, matters here. This is pretty basic stuff. Holmes was coming off a long lay off and was old. He would improve in fights vs Mccall holyfield and mercer, but still wasn't even close to the prime version of Holmes which Shavers fought.

So Holmes' chin became shitty for that one fight all of a sudden, then hardened up again for the rest of his career? Pathetic. Holmes' performance can be laid at the feet of the layoff, but that shot which Tyson dropped him with would have always done so.

Your Stiverne example is garbage, and utterly irrelevant to anything here.

[young_robbed]

So Holmes' chin became shitty for that one fight all of a sudden, then hardened up again for the rest of his career? Pathetic. Holmes' performance can be laid at the feet of the layoff, but that shot which Tyson dropped him with would have always done so.

Your Stiverne example is garbage, and utterly irrelevant to anything here.

The Stiverne example proves that just because King stopped Stiverne, doesn't mean that he's automatically a harder hitter than Wilder, only idiots deal in absolutes. and Sith.

Literally nobody here is calling Holmes' chin ****ty. Fighting a monster in Tyson, & coming off a pretty substantial lay off is the reason that Holmes got KO'd so badly by Tyson. Not because he's necessarily a better hitter than Shavers. However, it should be pretty clear that overall Prime Tyson is a better finisher than Shavers, a more accurate puncher, and a quicker one.

By the way - Chins don't get better with age. It doesn't work like that, unless you're George Foreman. Naturally most fighters are easier to knock out as they get older. But after that knock out Holmes trained a lot harder and became a better "old" fighter, it also helped that he didn't face any more hitters like Tyson afterwards.

[AlexKid]

Except he didn't bloody well KO him, did he?

He made him go unconscious briefly, Tyson landed plenty flush to the side of the head and he couldn't KO larry that way. Oviously Ernie punches harder

[NChristo]

A right hook (from orthodox stance ) is not the same as an overhand right. Both can be "looping" sure, but they aren't the same. They can come from different angles. Overhand right comes from over the top, the other comes from the side and is obviously is a hook which is a different angle.

An overhand right can absolutely be classed as a right hook, is pretty much a hook thrown from a high angle coming down on the opponent, it's not a straight punch if that's what you're trying to get at by saying they can both be looping.

All overhand rights can be classed as right hooks but not all right hooks can be classed as overhand rights i.e Benitez - Hope would be just a standard right hook

[Fury4daWIN]

The Stiverne example proves that just because King stopped Stiverne, doesn't mean that he's automatically a harder hitter than Wilder, only idiots deal in absolutes. and Sith.

Literally nobody here is calling Holmes' chin ****ty. Fighting a monster in Tyson, & coming off a pretty substantial lay off is the reason that Holmes got KO'd so badly by Tyson. Not because he's necessarily a better hitter than Shavers. However, it should be pretty clear that overall Prime Tyson is a better finisher than Shavers, a more accurate puncher, and a quicker one.

If you've seen either fight you'll know why it's a garbage example. King got an early stoppage against Stiverne, with Stiverne still on his feet. Wilder actually got a knockdown on Stiverne in the early rounds but it was erroneously ruled a slip giving Bermane time to recover.

Tyson and Shavers both landed identical punches to Holmes with almost identical results. That's why you can compare them. At best you can theorise that the punch that Shavers dropped Holmes with was at most on par with Tyson's shot, but considering Tyson routinely dropped guys like that and KOed them while Shavers didn't leads one to only one conclusion. And it aint complementary to Shavers.

By the way - Chins don't get better with age. It doesn't work like that, unless you're George Foreman. Naturally most fighters are easier to knock out as they get older. But after that knock out Holmes trained a lot harder and became a better "old" fighter, it also helped that he didn't face any more hitters like Tyson afterwards.

I'd say chins can definitely get better with age. There's lots of evidence of it happening. Foreman (obviously), Toney, Ali, Shannon Briggs. Even Wlad looks sturdier nowadays compared to his early years. Holmes certainly became a much more difficult fighter to hurt in the 90s compared to the previous decade, and I'm not sure if that can entirely be put down to his training harder. He was pretty damn fat in some of his later fights.

He never fought anyone on the level of Tyson again, but he certainly fought lots of guys who could have hurt him early in his career like Mercer and McCall. Evander was no slouch either, considering his blistering speed and vicious combination punching.

[Fury4daWIN]

He made him go unconscious briefly, Tyson landed plenty flush to the side of the head and he couldn't KO larry that way. Oviously Ernie punches harder

Obviously you're an idiot who can't grasp the simple fact that Earnie Shavers did not KO Larry Holmes, in any way, shape or form.

[juggernaut666]

Tyson took loads of punches to knock Larry unconscious, the final one to his chin, Shavers only needed one punch and it was to the side of the head. He did that against a young prime fast Larry.

Shavers hit harder than Tyson.

Tyson hit Holmes with a FEW direct punches and k.od him in FOUR rounds...how long did Shavers take to not knock him out?He fought Holmes a combined 23 rounds in two fights that's how long. Holmes also fought a decade longer After he fought Tyson and to some heavy punchers like McCall/Holyfield/Mercer and even ButterBean at 52 years old without even flinching. Holmes was also about 210 pounds skinny,and not as thick legged as he was by the mid 80's when he fought shavers...Tyson has a 100% k.o record with guys weighing 205 under which means little since he hasn't fought many guys under 215...shavers does not have all that impressive k.os to guys with good records,and if you take any fighter and look at their top 2/3 k.os...I would say Spinks/ and Holmes say he hits harder than Shavers among the long list of quality guys in the fashion he did it in.