ATG's List by McGoorty - A Hall of Fame

[McGoorty]

Those two names shouldn't even be borderline if he's going to make a top 200. I can understand a top 50 (then again he is including guys like Darcey and Griffo) so again, those names HAVE to be on a list like that.

I wasn't making a top 200, it is a shortlist to begin a top 100, the shortlist can have many names but do they have a chance of making top 100... Darcy and Griffo are certainties for that. I thought I had Ricardo Lopez but is he a flyweight or straweight ?... not keen on that division

[McGoorty]

I wasn't making a top 200, it is a shortlist to begin a top 100, the shortlist can have many names but do they have a chance of making top 100... Darcy and Griffo are certainties for that. I thought I had Ricardo Lopez but is he a flyweight or straweight ?... not keen on that division

And I am not dissing Trinidad or Benitez.

[soul_survivor]

What is your point about Griffo and Darcy ??? they are better than all those guys hands down.

I can understand you being a huge fan of those guys but is this a list of favourites or a subjective list of the best fighters ever? Because beyond what you've read and some grainy footage, you can't possibly know how good griffo or Darcy were. Not to mention most of griffos fights took place in australia, where he was the definition of a protected home town favourite. He defended his title against guys with 6 fights or with records that are difficult to check up on now.

Fighters from the early 20th century are difficult to quantify in every single category imaginable (skill set, wins/losses, roudns won, championships defendes and against whom).

You can't include guys like that and then not include people whose records are visible before our own eyes and beat a whole host of good fighters we can easily trace. It takes away from the credibility of your list.

[McGoorty]

I can understand you being a huge fan of those guys but is this a list of favourites or a subjective list of the best fighters ever? Because beyond what you've read and some grainy footage, you can't possibly know how good griffo or Darcy were. Not to mention most of griffos fights took place in australia, where he was the definition of a protected home town favourite. He defended his title against guys with 6 fights or with records that are difficult to check up on now.

Fighters from the early 20th century are difficult to quantify in every single category imaginable (skill set, wins/losses, roudns won, championships defendes and against whom).

You can't include guys like that and then not include people whose records are visible before our own eyes and beat a whole host of good fighters we can easily trace. It takes away from the credibility of your list.

I totally disagree, any top 100 without either of those two is simply not a credible list, besides your argument is not following facts. Young Griffo spent the vast majority of his career fighting in America and when he was in Australia he usually fought Aussies and Kiwis so hardly a home town favourite besides if Benny Leonard says he is the greatest that is a pretty good expert opinion. Darcy does have a great resume until he died, it gets me how anyone can ever argue against it... 55 fights before age 21 ?... here is a bloke who destroys fighters all through his career at an age no one else could ever have a hope of beating, hell even his first fight at age 14 he beats a 28 year old hardened professional boxer... 14 ffs..... he beat every man he ever faced losing to just 3 men and avenged all losses. I have only included THREE middleweights of this era.... four if you count Greb who at the time of Darcy's death was over a year older than Les but was yet to step into the stature or league Darcy was in, even the world's biggest Greb nuthugger, Steven Compton admits that if Greb had fought Darcy in 1917, defeat was virtually a certainty. I don't think for a minute you have any grudge against Darcy but this was one of the very best eras for the middleweights so to name just 3 proves I haven't gone overboard and Darcy is easily one of the 3 best MWs of his time... contemporaries said he was the best full stop and being opponents I will believe them.
out of my list there is at least 70 that are pretty sure to make it, if you can make points against Darcy I can also tear apart the resume's of every great old timer and find many fights that don't paint them in a good light. You seem to assume that Darcy had peaked and was now a shot fighter.... at age 20 ?... nah... he was only going to keep getting better... if Salvadore Sanchez and Pancho Villa deserve respect then so does Darcy, unfortunately the majority of modern forum posters do not respect him, unbelievable. Besides who have I overlooked ? and why is the strongest period in boxing history (1890 - 1930) hard to qualify fighters ? no one has trouble rating Greb a top 10 fighter (which doesn't make that a fact either), no I do nor agree with you on this, my list is very fair and well researched and my knowledge is pretty good. I will not retract saying that that era was the best....... these guys had far more fights than those from a later age and nearly all the old time experts said that the great fighters from this period were the best with only a few exceptions. Young Griffo actually has such a brilliant resume that if I saw someone call him a top 10 ATG I wouldn't argue with it because very very few have a better resume, hell he was untouchable he was that good, that fast and that clever and Gans and Dixon say so.... there are two guys with a hundred times the credibilty of either of us

[McGoorty]

I can understand you being a huge fan of those guys but is this a list of favourites or a subjective list of the best fighters ever? Because beyond what you've read and some grainy footage, you can't possibly know how good griffo or Darcy were. Not to mention most of griffos fights took place in australia, where he was the definition of a protected home town favourite. He defended his title against guys with 6 fights or with records that are difficult to check up on now.

Fighters from the early 20th century are difficult to quantify in every single category imaginable (skill set, wins/losses, roudns won, championships defendes and against whom).

You can't include guys like that and then not include people whose records are visible before our own eyes and beat a whole host of good fighters we can easily trace. It takes away from the credibility of your list.

Why is it that USA fighters never had home ground favouritism ?? LOL and ROFL

[Felix25]

"...if Benny Leonard says he (Griffo) is the greatest that is a pretty good expert opinion."

How do you figure that? Leonard was 7 years old when Griffo had his last fight and couldnt possibly have seen him in action... so his "expert" opinion doesnt really mean anything.

[McGoorty]

"...if Benny Leonard says he (Griffo) is the greatest that is a pretty good expert opinion."

How do you figure that? Leonard was 7 years old when Griffo had his last fight and couldnt possibly have seen him in action... so his "expert" opinion doesnt really mean anything.

you don't think he never knew dozens of fighter and experts who did see Griffo fight ? and what about the opinions of Gans or Dixon or Levigne ?.... Leonard was no idiot as far as I know and he probably did see film of Griffo, there was at least one film of him.. maybe more

[PrBoxing88]

How this list doesn't include Wilfred Benitez?????? i dont care who else is not here but Wilfred Benitez??? the youngest champion on history EVER and his defense is probably top 3 and is 1 of the fantastic 5 lol... Duran, Hearn, Leonard, Hagler and Benitez should be in every1 top 200 ATG.



Forgot to mention Hector Macho Camacho Sr.

[McGoorty]

How this list doesn't include Wilfred Benitez?????? i dont care who else is not here but Wilfred Benitez??? the youngest champion on history EVER and his defense is probably top 3 and is 1 of the fantastic 5 lol... Duran, Hearn, Leonard, Hagler and Benitez should be in every1 top 200 ATG.



Forgot to mention Hector Macho Camacho Sr.

I thought I did have Benitez there but if I didn't I probably made a big mistake, I am not sure who the youngest champ in history was, I know Les Darcy was 19 when he won a version of the middleweight title, how old was Wilfred when he won a belt ?

[McGoorty]

How this list doesn't include Wilfred Benitez?????? i dont care who else is not here but Wilfred Benitez??? the youngest champion on history EVER and his defense is probably top 3 and is 1 of the fantastic 5 lol... Duran, Hearn, Leonard, Hagler and Benitez should be in every1 top 200 ATG.



Forgot to mention Hector Macho Camacho Sr.

I do not even remotely agree with your opinion that Benitez was top 3 in defence of all time or did I read you wrong there ?.... My top 3 greatest defensive fighters of all time are in no particular order as I cannot separate guys of that level.............. Benny leonard, Young Griffo and Willie Pep..... and Archie Moore but not quite at the level of those three.