Roy Jones and Posterity

[BattlingNelson]

Can anyone speculate as to why RJJ is not rated as the greatest middleweight and light heavyweight in history?

If not, well. Y'all musta' forgot.

Depending on how you rate. If you rate based on fantasy fights, then you could put forth such an argument. If you rate mainly based on resume, as I do, there's no chance because of all those missing persons on his resume.

At LHW he'd have the strongest claim, but would you say that his resume has a chance against Moore or Charles?

[The Old LefHook]

Depending on how you rate. If you rate based on fantasy fights, then you could put forth such an argument. If you rate mainly based on resume, as I do, there's no chance because of all those missing persons on his resume.

At LHW he'd have the strongest claim, but would you say that his resume has a chance against Moore or Charles?

Now we are getting somewhere. The company you keep on earth is the company you keep in heaven; the company you keep in the ring is the company you keep in history; the quality of opposition you fight (and if you can beat them, of course) goes quite far indeed in determining whether you sit at first table or fifth table in the Hall of the Greats, or are found among the dishwashers in the backroom.

People are easy to fool, but history, peoples' greatest invention, is quite difficult to bamboozle for a long time. It has been done, in fact it is continually being done. I know of no boxer bright enough to pull that off, however, any that I believe will ultimately succeed, though I am aware of many who tried and are trying.

Have no fear, they end up with the comapny they keep here.

[BattlingNelson]

Now we are getting somewhere. The company you keep on earth is the company you keep in heaven; the company you keep in the ring is the company you keep in history; the quality of opposition you fight (and if you can beat them, of course) goes quite far indeed in determining whether you sit at first table or fifth table in the Hall of the Greats, or are found among the dishwashers in the backroom.

People are easy to fool, but history, peoples' greatest invention, is quite difficult to bamboozle for a long time. It has been done, in fact it is continually being done. I know of no boxer bright enough to pull that off, however, any that I believe will ultimately succeed, though I am aware of many who tried and are trying.

Have no fear, they end up with the comapny they keep here.

Well I'm not sure I follow your chain of thought there, but surely RJJ belongs in a Hall of the greats, but that would not be because of his dominance of a division, but, as Reed pointed out, because of his ability to jump divisions and beating good fighters there.

But you also has to Factor in his losses. Not those of the last many years, but those to Tarver and Johnson. There's also those opponents he for various reasons did not face. That must carry some weight when measuring against past greats. Did they fight their biggest threats? Are there notable misses there? Big question that requires some strong research or knowledge from that. I'd estimate that there where much fewer misses in the old days due to more fights and less complicated politics.

[The Old LefHook]

And I must add, that to have a famous name on your resume and to think that history will somehow overlook the fact that the name was a washed up shell by then, is really daft in the record-keeping world we have now. RJJ was never much of a name hunter, he was a trinket hunter, a belt hound. Can any anyone seriously give Calzaghe legacy points for beating the vampire shell of RJJ, or even Hopkins, for that matter? Calzaghe might indeed have had the right kind of goods to beat Hopkins at any point, but he waited a long time with many excuses before he was willing to find out, when he thought they were both through.

But we are talking about Jones here, and what he might or might not get legacy points for. You lose them for missing anyone considered dangerous, especially when it is already common knowledge that your perennial rule is over a weak division. I might excuse RJJ's xenophobia, history only notes it as what it does not condone. History will point out no fewer than three, perhaps more, opponents he should have faced for a platinum, ruby-studded legacy. The legacy bout was Calzaghe, no matter if you must go to his hometown to get it.

Roy is slightly smarter than other boxers who tried it, for he now realizes y'all do indeed start forgetting as soon as a man steps off the stage. That is because it is worth forgetting, Roy. He will not make up his mistakes now, though that is desperately what he is up to. What Roy thought was forgetting turned out to be good old analysis. Y'all forgot the wrong things, that's all. Come back, y'all.

But there is still another, more terrifying boogeyman in Roy's closet. And all good boogeymen are question marks.

[BattlingNelson]

And I must add, that to have a famous name on your resume and to think that history will somehow overlook the fact that the name was washed up shell by then, is really daft in the record-keeping world we have now. RJJ was never much of a name hunter, he was a trinket hunter, a belt hound. Can any anyone seriously give Calzaghe legacy points for beating the vampire shell of RJJ, or even Hopkins, for that matter? Calzaghe might indeed have had the right kind of goods to beat Hopkins at any point, but he waited al ong time with many excuses before he was willing to find out.

For Jones only a few legacy points. For Hopkins quite a bit.

But we are talking about Jones here, and what he might or might not get legacy points for. You lose them for missing anyone considered dangerous, especially when it is already common knowledge that your perennial rule is over a weak division. I might excuse RJJ's xenophobia, history only notes it as what it does not condone. History will point out no fewer than three, perhaps more, opponents he should have faced for a platinum, ruby-studded legacy. The legacy bout was Calzaghe, no matter if you must go to his hometown to get it.

Oh well the major misses will be Nunn, Liles, Michalszewski.

Roy is slightly smarter than other boxers who tried it, for he now realizes y'all do indeed start forgetting as soon as a man steps off the stage. That is because it is worth forgetting, Roy. He will not make up his mistakes now, though that is desperately what he is up to. What Roy thought was forgetting turned out to be good old analysis. Y'all forgot the wrong things, that's all. Come back, y'all.

But there is still another, more terrifying boogeyman in Roy's closet. And all good boogeymen are question marks.

Really? Do you think he is fighting on to enhance lost legacy? I dont. I think his reason is the one that most boxers have. Boxing is their trade. They know nothing else. Jones has been done for years and he knows it.

[The Old LefHook]

Well I'm not sure I follow your chain of thought there, but surely RJJ belongs in a Hall of the greats,...

But at what table? Will it be first table as he planned and expected? To wash dishes in the Hall of the Greats, as Ricky Hatton does, is an honor. To wait tables, as Calzaghe does, is an even bigger honor. To have a permanent seat at any banquet table is higher honor yet. To sit at first table with Robinson, Greb, Ali, Dempsey, Duran and fifteen others, a great champion has to have sought his greatest challenges with unbending resolve, reasonable or unreasonable. If a fighter does not pursue this quest almost fanatically, I am not interested in his knocking off of lined up petunias. It is my belief that history is not either. I think history should be particularly harsh on those who had weak competition anyway, but still chose not to pursue diligently some of the best matchups available to them. Shame on any fighter who lets such matchup slip by.

[BattlingNelson]

But at what table? Will it be first table as he planned and expected? To wash dishes in the Hall of the Greats, as Ricky Hatton does, is an honor. To wait tables, as Calzaghe does, is an even bigger honor. To have a permanent seat at any banquet table is higher honor yet. To sit at first table with Robinson, Greb, Ali, Dempsey, Duran and fifteen others, a great champion has to have sought his greatest challenges with unbending resolve, reasonable or unreasonable. If a fighter does not pursue this quest almost fanatically, I am not interested in his knocking off of lined up petunias. It is my belief that history is not either. I think history should be particularly harsh on those who had weak competition anyway, but still chose not to pursue diligently some of the best matchups available to them. Shame on any fighter who lets such matchup slip by.

Ah. So basically you ask for the number that is reserved for Jones on an ATG p4p list. Well he is above Calzaghe. Whether he deserves a place at one of the tables, just to stay with the picture you are painting, well then not for me. He might be the oberkellner though or member of the Wine selections comitee ( I am a real life wine degustateur extraordinaire so that wouldn't be that bad).

Anyways I would reserve the places around the tables for only the greatest of the greats. Yes Jones would have thought that he should have a seat there, but I agree. He missed.

[The Old LefHook]

Ah. So basically you ask for the number that is reserved for Jones on an ATG p4p list. Well he is above Calzaghe. Whether he deserves a place at one of the tables, just to stay with the picture you are painting, well then not for me. He might be the oberkellner though or member of the Wine selections comitee ( I am a real life wine degustateur extraordinaire so that wouldn't be that bad).

Anyways I would reserve the places around the tables for only the greatest of the greats. Yes Jones would have thought that he should have a seat there, but I agree. He missed.

The place has quite a few tables, as I understand it, first table being the most prestigious. The fighters feast and drink like Vikings at Valhalla, and friendly fist fights are not unheard of. I heard a good story about the place that I will tell you. Of course, you understand it is an afterlife place where the spirits of retired fighters also go.

They had some visitors there who were aliens and were looking the place over, taking the tour. These aliens looked a lot like smurfs, and one of them was male, the sex which bears the children of their race. But Tony Ayala, who takes the garbage out at the Hall, didn't even notice or care. When a giant distraction occured, which amounted to an angry Duran holding Ricky Hatton and Joel Calzaghe down simultaneously on one of the table tops and b*tch slapping them repeatedly for a speck he found on his teacup, Tony saw his chance. He snatched one of the aliens and headed for the walk-in freezer with her...er...him, and locked the heavy door behind him. When the angry all time greats finally broke through the door, with the help of a Dempsey left hook, Tony had already impregnated the alien. Cleveland Williams and Ernie Shavers both landed their best punches to either side of his head at the same time with such force that something the size of a marble flew out the top and high into the air. They realized it was Tony's brain, and quickly moved him to the spot where that marble-sized marvel would fall perfectly back into his cranium cavity. Williams patted the opening closed, and Ayala was no different than he had ever been.

There is no real point to this story, I am just tryng to relate some of the things I heard about the Hall of the Greats. I am not even sure where it is, I just do not think it is an earthly place. I think it represents the stored, collective appraisals of mankind on the subject of boxing greatness.

But I digress.

In forty-five minutes the baby was born, if you want to call it that, the progeny of Ayala and the alien. As the tentacled, armored infant slid on the floor from table to table, the all time greats did their best to kill it. It was Joe Louis who finally smashed a table down on it, ending the short existence of the creature, making the observation, "that thing could have been as bad as Tony."

Leave it to Ayala. He comes running from the kitchen wailing "my baby, my baby," like his heart is torn in two. It was a ruse to create another distraction, of course. Tony snatched the other alien up and ran for the freezer. This time he was caught and disciplined again before he could impregnate his second alien of the evening.

Now that is the kind of place it is, as I understand it. They have quite a good time. After dinner, the lights are often dimmed and they watch old fight films. Actual fights frequently break out. You have to understand, fighting is something they love to do, they can't get enough of it, even in death, and are still seeking the biggest challenges, who are always conveniently nearby. It would be unnatural if fights did not break out, considering the comapny.

So you see, a lot of fighters are there, but not all have prestigious seating, and some have none at all but are the lowly, sometimes abused, servants of the true all time greats.

There you have it.

[IMDAZED]

But at what table? Will it be first table as he planned and expected? To wash dishes in the Hall of the Greats, as Ricky Hatton does, is an honor. To wait tables, as Calzaghe does, is an even bigger honor. To have a permanent seat at any banquet table is higher honor yet. To sit at first table with Robinson, Greb, Ali, Dempsey, Duran and fifteen others, a great champion has to have sought his greatest challenges with unbending resolve, reasonable or unreasonable. If a fighter does not pursue this quest almost fanatically, I am not interested in his knocking off of lined up petunias. It is my belief that history is not either. I think history should be particularly harsh on those who had weak competition anyway, but still chose not to pursue diligently some of the best matchups available to them. Shame on any fighter who lets such matchup slip by.

I don't understand what you're getting at. Ultimately, your resume speaks for itself. Jones' accomplishments are phenomenal. Without question, an all-great. So he did something. Actually, he did more than most boxers could dream of. So are you asking where will he be seated at the ATG Gala? I don't know but a prime version would be a nightmare for almost everyone else there.

[The Old LefHook]

I don't understand what you're getting at. Ultimately, your resume speaks for itself.

I fully agree, lad, that a resume speaks for itself, but I also happen to think it is a long, involved document, not the simple one some people view it as.

A full resume includes a lot of information besides the win/loss column, in fact, ideally, it includes every available piece of information, with each piece weighted properly. A win over a big name only means squat if they were still formidable at the time of the win. Geezer hunter Joel Calzaghe gets nothing but his pot of money for beating RJJ, for instance. And the list of other examples just as good is a long one.

The sickening trend of fighters chasing after senior citizens about whom it is public knowledge they are washed up, is what makes boxing boring, lad. Get 'em while they're fresh, goes for bagels and boxers and most anything except wine and violins.

One good thing about our present: we produce a much more thorough record than our predecessors. Because of film and its prevelance and because of the internet, our descendants will not have to guess over the kind of questions that nag us. We can tell from the record book that young fighter X fought a crafty veteran of 38, but have to guess and interpret the few or biased words of others on just how faded the veteran was and of what value the win was to X, since we were not there to view it for ourselves. Our descendants will be able to see.

If you interview ten witnesses to a crime, you will get ten different stories. Police have known this forever. Eyewitness accounts of bigtime boxing matches (which includes TV viewers) are also notoriously unreliable. I have been wrong many times about some strong opinion I held from the old days on this or that match, until I bothered to review the films. Sometimes one is shocked at the part emotion must have played in the forming of such conclusions. My strong opinions have had their wings clipped on multiple occasions, so that leads me to be su****ious of the accounts of others, as well, if I couldn't even trust my own.

Video is god now. We don't have to trust anyone, even our former selves, if the fight was taped.

The record is not just who fought who, and who won, it is the whole Mary Anne. The Record requires one to mentally synthesize the complex of all known information into one mental document. In a sense, one becomes a computer, to arrive at a final impression which is still a guess.