Who'd win in a battle of the jabs: Lennox Lewis or Wladimir Klitschko?

[beez721]

I never thought there was much wrong with Bruno's chin. Aside from the fights against Tyson (which he lost before stepping into the ring) - pretty much all of Bruno's troubles stemmed from gassing late in a bout.

yea,,,I definitely wouldnt say his chin was glass. stamina was his biggest enemy as well as freezing up when caught with a big shot. if you stunned him with a shot you could tee off on him

[Mugwump]

Meh. I'd say it was both. Clearly his chin was a disadvantage. Witherspoon hurt him bad, and yeah he was gassed also but Witherspoon clearly got to him

Then why didn't Witherspoon starch Bruno in the third round?

That fight followed, almost to the round, the same losing template Bruno drew up fighting Bonecrusher.

In both fights Bruno was ahead. Indeed, against Witherspoon all he had to do was stand up and he was the winner! And yet - come the late rounds - Bruno's stamina and energy reserves dropped off a cliff.

Witherspoon didn't catch him with anything he hadn't shrugged off earlier. The difference was Bruno was exhausted.

[Mugwump]

yea,,,I definitely wouldnt say his chin was glass. stamina was his biggest enemy as well as freezing up when caught with a big shot. if you stunned him with a shot you could tee off on him

Unquestionably fault lies with the trainer. Bruno's anaerobic fitness levels just weren't tuned to the requirements of boxing - hence adjustments needed to be made and weren't.

You ARE correct about him freezing up. Like Tyson, Bruno has been plagued with mental problems and such might offer some explanation. But I'm no psychiatrist.

[young_robbed]

Then why didn't Witherspoon starch Bruno in the third round?

That fight followed, almost to the round, the same losing template Bruno drew up fighting Bonecrusher.

In both fights Bruno was ahead. Indeed, against Witherspoon all he had to do was stand up and he was the winner! And yet - come the late rounds - Bruno's stamina and energy reserves dropped off a cliff.

Witherspoon didn't catch him with anything he hadn't shrugged off earlier. The difference was Bruno was exhausted.

Witherspoon wasn't landing the same shots that he was landing up until that point. Bruno defensively also was nothing special and that is a big weakness in the heavyweight division. As he got more tired that chin became more exposed and he became more susceptible to Witherspoon's offense.

So yeah, again, it was both his chin and his stamina. Sprinkle in some defensive issues too.

[REMOVE SHARK 55]

For me Wlad's jab is more of a range finder always in your face. Lennox Lewis had a proper jab especially under Emmanuel Steward. He stepped in with the jab and went upstairs and downstairs with it. So regarding this subject Lennox wins this battle.

[kiDynamite92]

It wasn't so much Bruno's jab or stamina, it was more of him not knowing how to hold on when he was hurt. His stamina is questionable, a man that heavily muscled would tire soon, but from his matches against Lewis and Tyson it was his inability to not hold on which really cost him. A shame really, I thought he could have gone onto beat Lewis in that fight.

[Mugwump]

It wasn't so much Bruno's jab or stamina, it was more of him not knowing how to hold on when he was hurt.

Yep. That was a big problem for Bruno. When stunned he seem to lose all cognitive function rendering him practically defenceless.

I guess my point is that for all the criticism and jokes levelled at Bruno - he had the raw material which any boxing trainer would covet.

He was a big, physical guy who hit like a truck and his KO power wasn't diminished as he climbed the ladder. Couple this with a brute of a jab and the ability to throw clean and accurate combinations and you have the makings of a top class fighter.

Yes, his stamina and decision-making let him down. But these were issues which could, and more importantly, should have been addressed by his trainer.

I maintain that with a good trainer working on him from the beginning neither Witherspoon nor Bonecrusher would have presented any problems.

And working behind that jab I reckon he could give Tyson in his prime a run for his money. I remember the first time they fought and it was obvious Bruno had been beaten by the Myth before the man stepped in the ring. I remember feeling somewhat baffled because Bruno was unquestionably the bigger man. Tyson himself said that the shot Bruno tagged him with was one of the hardest he ever took. If anything it should have been Bruno bullying the younger smaller man. Not the other way around.

Alas, Bruno's trainers weren't up to the job. Which is a pity because the raw material was certainly there.

[kiDynamite92]

Technically the fight against Tyson was a bad match up for him. I don't question Bruno's jab or power and he had a decent chin too but to beat Tyson you need to be able to move and stay out of range. Bruno just couldn't do that, he was way too big. It's either you box him from the outside or you're George Foreman or Sonny Liston. No one else is beating Mike in a pure shoot out.

I agree with you about everything else though. If Bruno was around today I reckon he would have cracked Wladamir at least once. A lot of people nowadays are comparing Anthony Joshua to Lennox Lewis but in my opinion he'll turn out to be more like Frank Bruno, which is still a big plus for the division.

[Mugwump]

I agree on the point about Joshua. He seems a decent prospect. Certainly a step above the standard, sub-standard garbage which has populated the heavyweight division for the last decade.

Comparisons with Lewis are entirely misplaced. Lewis was always light on his feet at a young age whereas Joshua's seem rooted to the ground.

A lot has been made of the paucity of fighting talent over the last few years. But I think the real problem is a scarcity of TRAINERS.

I mean, how many fighters today do you see who possess genuine head movement? How many fighters today do you see who know how to slip a punch?

At some point boxing made the mistake of listening to modern snake oil salesmen punting the idea that "progressive", "scientific" training methods (with special emphasis on diet, fitness, strength and psychological conditioning) are more important than the aforementioned skills which were passed down through generations of trainers all the way back to the sport's origins.

A great example is someone like Adam Booth. I have no doubts about his ability to devise a scientifically rigorous diet which puts twenty pounds of lean muscle bulk on David Haye moving up from the amateurs. I have no doubts about his ability to employ state-of-the-art technology and methods to increase Haye's fitness levels. And I have no doubts about him utilising the most up-to-date techniques which science has provided so as to leave a guy like Haye in the most positive mental state leading up to a fight.

But if the sum total of Booth's training leaves Haye unable to throw anything more than single bombs (scientifically "optimised" or not), flat footed because his calorically rigorous diet has impacted upon his natural agility and with a (positively re-enforced) head which might as well be welded to his shoulders like Batman and his early cape then what's the point?

If you look at the heavyweight division there are plenty of big guys who often demonstrate flashes of ability.

The problem is there aren't any BOXING trainers (as opposed to modern fitness conditioners) who can shape the raw material into something approaching a fighter like the early Greek sculptors worked with marble.

[kiDynamite92]

Agreed. David Haye trains more like an athlete then a boxer. He focusses more on speed and power rather then trying to sharpen his skills. I think he does more work with Ruben Tabares then with Adam Booth focussing on strength and conditioning. Part of the problem in recent times has been the amateur system where hooks and uppercuts are looked down upon. It more of the 1-2 and then getting out of range which puts a heavy emphasis on speed and power rather then skills and knowing how to set up other punches off the 1-2. That basically come through to the pros and that's why fighters usually go to trainers who focus more on the 1-2 then anything. That's why the only old school trainer who was in the heavyweight division was Manny Steward, as he always taught his fighters to fight tall and work behind that jab.