Did Patterson really duck Liston?

[LacedUp]

So, I think the general consensus amongst boxing fans is that Liston was ducked for years by Patterson and/or his trainer Cus D'amato.

For Patterson:

Patterson said in an interview with Sports Illustrated from his championship days: "I am a man. Any man can say he'll beat me, but no man can say I fear him".

President Kennedy said he'd prefer Patterson not to fight Liston because of Liston's ties to the mafia, as did Cus D'amato. The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People also disapproved of Liston for the same reason.

Several sports writers at the time were also arguing that Liston shouldn't even hold a license let alone fight for the championship of the world.

Against Patterson:

Plenty of fighters connected to the mafia had fought for titles in the past.

Liston was his no1 contender from 1960, where he fought the top guys like Williams and Folley whereas Patterson fought the 2nd tier heavyweights of the era probably because of the mafia connections that D'amato didn't like.

Liston was a fearsome fighter and everyone knew he would make minced meat of Patterson.

Several sports writers and newspapers were leading a campaign for Liston and claimed Patterson ducked him.

What do you think? Did Patterson duck him? Did D'amato? Or was the mafia connections a legit excuse to postpone the fight taking place?

[TBear]

I think Patterson and his people put the fight off as long as they could.

[Weltschmerz]

Patterson ducked him, the US President wanted the fight to happen, Patterson took the fight but knew he had no chance.

[LacedUp]

Patterson ducked him, the US President wanted the fight to happen, Patterson took the fight but knew he had no chance.

Actually, Kennedy said he didn't want the fight to happen.

http://www.thesportsfanjournal.com/s...ro-bad-******/

[Weltschmerz]

Actually, Kennedy said he didn't want the fight to happen.

http://www.thesportsfanjournal.com/s...ro-bad-******/

Well, there are contradicting sources for that. Liston claimed that Kennedy had said the fight should happen, but it was also revealed that Kennedy thought it best if Liston won, due to the political and social landscape at the time,

http://www.thenation.com/blog/178521...-muhammad-ali#

Anyway, the management of Patterson gave the advice that he 'couldn't beat' Liston. When the fight did happen, the people wanted the good guy Patterson to win, but the politicians wanted Liston to win.

[Fast Eddy]

Can you blame him?

[bklynboy]

So, I think the general consensus amongst boxing fans is that Liston was ducked for years by Patterson and/or his trainer Cus D'amato.

For Patterson:

Patterson said in an interview with Sports Illustrated from his championship days: "I am a man. Any man can say he'll beat me, but no man can say I fear him".

President Kennedy said he'd prefer Patterson not to fight Liston because of Liston's ties to the mafia, as did Cus D'amato. The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People also disapproved of Liston for the same reason.

Several sports writers at the time were also arguing that Liston shouldn't even hold a license let alone fight for the championship of the world.

Against Patterson:

Plenty of fighters connected to the mafia had fought for titles in the past.

Liston was his no1 contender from 1960, where he fought the top guys like Williams and Folley whereas Patterson fought the 2nd tier heavyweights of the era probably because of the mafia connections that D'amato didn't like.

Liston was a fearsome fighter and everyone knew he would make minced meat of Patterson.

Several sports writers and newspapers were leading a campaign for Liston and claimed Patterson ducked him.

What do you think? Did Patterson duck him? Did D'amato? Or was the mafia connections a legit excuse to postpone the fight taking place?

Somewhere I read that Cus D'Amato wanted to wait as long as possible before having Patterson fight Liston. (It may have been Hauser's book on Ali).

Anyway looking at it from today's perspective he didn't push it off *that* long. It was 18mths from the time he beat Ingemar to the time he fought Liston. (With one fight in between)

[- Ram Raid -]

There were many dissenting voices from inside and outside of the sport that didn't want that first fight to happen. Patterson found himself embroiled in the civil rights era tussle over black representation. The NAACP President Percy Sutton asked Floyd not to take the fight and made it clear publicly that he felt Patterson "represents us better than Liston ever could or would." They felt that Liston as champion would be detrimental to the cause of Black progress.

Which is as good an excuse as any to revisit Leroi Jones' take on the issue:
"Sonny Liston was the big black negro in every white man's hallway, waiting to do him in, deal him under, for all the hurts white men have been able to inflict on his world . . . He was the underdeveloped have-not (politically naive) backward country, the subject people, finally here to collect his pound of flesh.

. . . Patterson was to represent the fruit of the missionary ethic; he had found God, reversed his underprivileged (uncontrolled) violence, and turned it to work for the democratic liberal imperialist state. The tardy black Horatio Alger offering the glad hand of integration to welcome twenty million into the lunatic asylum of white America.

In this context, Liston the unreformed, Liston the vulgar, Liston the violent, comes on as a straight-up Heavy. . . "They" painted Liston Black. They painted Patterson White. And that was the simple conflict. Which way would the black man go?"

Red Smith questioned the morality of giving a man with a stacked record for violent crime the opportunity to become a champion. Others in the sporting press questioned what kind of sport was it to deny a man an opportunity he had clearly earned.

Perhaps the biggest voice of dissent was D'Amato's. Rarely one to let his fighters be overmatched, he'd been accused of feeding Patterson less than stellar opponents. The pretext for not granting Liston a title shot was that he was mob controlled. He went as far as telling Liston that he'd never get his shot as long as he was managed by "Pep" Barone, who was a known associate of Blinky Palermo, who of course, was the 'business' partner of boxing's then de facto overlord Frankie Carbo.

When Liston jettisoned Barone in favour of George Katz to placate D'Amato, the trainer reneged on his promise. Liston still wasn't getting a shot. Patterson however, didn't agree. On grounds of sportsmanship he felt that Liston should be given the shot he deserved and that he wouldn't be any kind of champion if he denied him it stating, "ll fight anyone regardless of name or affiliations. I'm tired of arguments."Unfortunately for D'Amato Patterson had become increasingly distrustful of his trainer/manager and forced a split around the time of the second Johansson fight.

Was it D'Amato's insistence that his charge shouldn't fight Liston that caused the split? It's possible that added to it but the grievance seems to have been caused by Cus' 'mishandling' of Floyd's fight contracts and the scandal that broke when it became known that D'Amato, despite his self styled 'moral crusade' to purge boxing of Jim Norris' International Boxing Club and the mob, had himself struck a deal with "Fat Tony" Salerno (future front boss of the Genovese crime family) to provide the upfront money for the first Johansson fight.

Interestingly, D'Amato had also received private loans from the IBC's Jim Norris the year Patterson won the title for sums of $15,000 and $5,000. So it seems that Liston's mob connections were a less than credible excuse on Cus' part. Fortunately for Sonny, Patterson was a man that believed in fair play.

[rightsideup]

Can you blame him?

not at all

[LacedUp]

There were many dissenting voices from inside and outside of the sport that didn't want that first fight to happen. Patterson found himself embroiled in the civil rights era tussle over black representation. The NAACP President Percy Sutton asked Floyd not to take the fight and made it clear publicly that he felt Patterson "represents us better than Liston ever could or would." They felt that Liston as champion would be detrimental to the cause of Black progress.

Which is as good an excuse as any to revisit Leroi Jones' take on the issue:
"Sonny Liston was the big black negro in every white man's hallway, waiting to do him in, deal him under, for all the hurts white men have been able to inflict on his world . . . He was the underdeveloped have-not (politically naive) backward country, the subject people, finally here to collect his pound of flesh.

. . . Patterson was to represent the fruit of the missionary ethic; he had found God, reversed his underprivileged (uncontrolled) violence, and turned it to work for the democratic liberal imperialist state. The tardy black Horatio Alger offering the glad hand of integration to welcome twenty million into the lunatic asylum of white America.

In this context, Liston the unreformed, Liston the vulgar, Liston the violent, comes on as a straight-up Heavy. . . "They" painted Liston Black. They painted Patterson White. And that was the simple conflict. Which way would the black man go?"

Red Smith questioned the morality of giving a man with a stacked record for violent crime the opportunity to become a champion. Others in the sporting press questioned what kind of sport was it to deny a man an opportunity he had clearly earned.

Perhaps the biggest voice of dissent was D'Amato's. Rarely one to let his fighters be overmatched, he'd been accused of feeding Patterson less than stellar opponents. The pretext for not granting Liston a title shot was that he was mob controlled. He went as far as telling Liston that he'd never get his shot as long as he was managed by "Pep" Barone, who was a known associate of Blinky Palermo, who of course, was the 'business' partner of boxing's then de facto overlord Frankie Carbo.

When Liston jettisoned Barone in favour of George Katz to placate D'Amato, the trainer reneged on his promise. Liston still wasn't getting a shot. Patterson however, didn't agree. On grounds of sportsmanship he felt that Liston should be given the shot he deserved and that he wouldn't be any kind of champion if he denied him it stating, "ll fight anyone regardless of name or affiliations. I'm tired of arguments."Unfortunately for D'Amato Patterson had become increasingly distrustful of his trainer/manager and forced a split around the time of the second Johansson fight.

Was it D'Amato's insistence that his charge shouldn't fight Liston that caused the split? It's possible that added to it but the grievance seems to have been caused by Cus' 'mishandling' of Floyd's fight contracts and the scandal that broke when it became known that D'Amato, despite his self styled 'moral crusade' to purge boxing of Jim Norris' International Boxing Club and the mob, had himself struck a deal with "Fat Tony" Salerno (future front boss of the Genovese crime family) to provide the upfront money for the first Johansson fight.

Interestingly, D'Amato had also received private loans from the IBC's Jim Norris the year Patterson won the title for sums of $15,000 and $5,000. So it seems that Liston's mob connections were a less than credible excuse on Cus' part. Fortunately for Sonny, Patterson was a man that believed in fair play.

Good post, there certainly was a lot of hypocrisy from D'amato's side.