49 years ago today...

[Ray Corso]

If you look closely at Sonny's right side as the right hand lands you can see the effect ripple down Sonny's body! The punch is real and it dropped him for sure...............................could he have risen? I think so but if the fix was in he used the situation to bail out early. Don't forget that Sonny got his azz handed to him in the first fight. The only fix then was Ali fixing to beat him up!

About 15 months before the first fight Ali sparred with Sonny in the Miami gym and Sonny couldn't hit him. Dundee knew what he was doing and Ali got it done.
That fight was a HUGE upset even I thought Sonny would catch him after 5 and get him out I was wrong along with everyone else!
Ray.

[#1Assassin]

Although it's become an iconic picture it certainly wasn't one of boxing's iconic moments. Ali screaming at Liston to get up as the crowd start booing that the fix is in.
Despite it's undoubted aesthetic appeal, I've always disliked viewing this picture as it opens up the question as to why Liston took a dive?

i dont think he did take a dive.

the KD was real, all this phantom punch BS is just that, BS. ali caught and dropped him fair and square. what happened after that is anyones guess, personally i believe listons own explanation.

the only thing liston feared was a crazy man, because of his unpredictable nature. back then liston thought ali was a legitimate nut case, he said he stayed down because if he tried to get up he thought ali would pop him while getting to is feet. knowing the rules and how a count should be stopped if a fighter leaves the neutral corner like ali obviously did, he figured why not stay down until ali gets out of his face and the count resumes.

problem is the ref stopped the count to get ali to a neutral corner, but then stopped the fight when informed liston had been down more than 10 seconds. a mistake considering the count was stopped for the appropriate reason and should have continued where it was.

all reports say liston trained like never before in preparation for that fight, why do that only to take a dive? maybe it was last second but idk, listons explanation makes perfect sense to me.

[Scott9945]

Although it's become an iconic picture it certainly wasn't one of boxing's iconic moments. Ali screaming at Liston to get up as the crowd start booing that the fix is in.
Despite it's undoubted aesthetic appeal, I've always disliked viewing this picture as it opens up the question as to why Liston took a dive?

Great photo for sure. But you are right, no matter what anyone's take is on it is, that fight hurt boxing for awhile. The public perception of it at the time was that Sonny took a dive. He was pretty much blackballed as a legitimate contender from then on.

[- Ram Raid -]

If you look closely at Sonny's right side as the right hand lands you can see the effect ripple down Sonny's body! The punch is real and it dropped him for sure...............................could he have risen? I think so but if the fix was in he used the situation to bail out early. Don't forget that Sonny got his azz handed to him in the first fight. The only fix then was Ali fixing to beat him up!

About 15 months before the first fight Ali sparred with Sonny in the Miami gym and Sonny couldn't hit him. Dundee knew what he was doing and Ali got it done.
That fight was a HUGE upset even I thought Sonny would catch him after 5 and get him out I was wrong along with everyone else!
Ray.

Come on Ray, It was an arm punch. He was moving backwards, his feet weren't planted, they weren't in the right position to generate power and he had next to no weight on his back foot so there's no grip on the canvas.

[- Ram Raid -]

i dont think he did take a dive.

the KD was real, all this phantom punch BS is just that, BS. ali caught and dropped him fair and square. what happened after that is anyones guess, personally i believe listons own explanation.

the only thing liston feared was a crazy man, because of his unpredictable nature. back then liston thought ali was a legitimate nut case, he said he stayed down because if he tried to get up he thought ali would pop him while getting to is feet. knowing the rules and how a count should be stopped if a fighter leaves the neutral corner like ali obviously did, he figured why not stay down until ali gets out of his face and the count resumes.

problem is the ref stopped the count to get ali to a neutral corner, but then stopped the fight when informed liston had been down more than 10 seconds. a mistake considering the count was stopped for the appropriate reason and should have continued where it was.

all reports say liston trained like never before in preparation for that fight, why do that only to take a dive? maybe it was last second but idk, listons explanation makes perfect sense to me.

It wasn't like he was on the canvas watching Ali though and contemplating his next move, he was too busy hamming it up, rolling around the canvas like a two bit actor. Ali for the most part was running around the ring with his hands raised, not stood over him. My opinion is that Sonny needed an excuse and that was the best one that he could come up with.

[LacedUp]

Come on Ray, It was an arm punch. He was moving backwards, his feet weren't planted, they weren't in the right position to generate power and he had next to no weight on his back foot so there's no grip on the canvas.

Also, Liston got up and continued fighting after that only for Jersey Joe Walcott to call it off.

He didn't really look hurt when he got up. The shaky legs look hella fake to me, especially as he dodged a couple of punches as well.

I also find it extremely hard to believe that the big brute Liston would roll around on the floor like that from a relatively light punch.

[Ray Corso]

The punch was on the chin with Sonny's chin over extending his feet. Another words no support for the contact. Ali timed it perfectly and there's nothing new about coming over the top of a jab especially when a fighter over extends himself. No legs under you? You get hurt! Again watch Sonny's right side ripple from the impact!
Look at his head twist upon impact, also your stunned when you get hit with something you don't see and Sonny did NOT see that coming.
Sonny never had to gage distance before Ali, he had a great reach and used his jab to find his targets. With Ali he was getting hit with shots that he thought were out of range. That messes up a fighter and if you can't adjust your in tuff.
Again I don't believe in the KO but the knock down is right there to see.
Ray

[- Ram Raid -]

Also, Liston got up and continued fighting after that only for Jersey Joe Walcott to call it off.

He didn't really look hurt when he got up. The shaky legs look hella fake to me, especially as he dodged a couple of punches as well.

I also find it extremely hard to believe that the big brute Liston would roll around on the floor like that from a relatively light punch.

I don't think that engaging in that kind of bull**** came too easy for him. It was a very awkward performance.

But, he'd quit on his stool in the first fight and it aroused that much su****ion that he had his purse withheld, so what could he do? He had to get busy rolling around on the floor.

The reason why the fight was held at a youth centre in Lewisham in the first place was because non of the big fight cities wanted anything to do with the bout.

Art Laurie who was chairman of the Nevada State Boxing Commission discussed the prospect of holding the fight in Vegas with Senators Hart and Keating and later said, "They told me not have anything to do with the fight, because our industry here was gaming, and that fight was going to stink out the place".

He also claimed that to his understanding Liston and his backers, "got three hundred thousand dollars for the fight, and they bet it at seven-to-one. They got two-point-one-million. The money was bet through Cleveland. That's where they placed the money".

[- Ram Raid -]

The punch was on the chin with Sonny's chin over extending his feet. Another words no support for the contact. Ali timed it perfectly and there's nothing new about coming over the top of a jab especially when a fighter over extends himself. No legs under you? You get hurt! Again watch Sonny's right side ripple from the impact!
Look at his head twist upon impact, also your stunned when you get hit with something you don't see and Sonny did NOT see that coming.
Sonny never had to gage distance before Ali, he had a great reach and used his jab to find his targets. With Ali he was getting hit with shots that he thought were out of range. That messes up a fighter and if you can't adjust your in tuff.
Again I don't believe in the KO but the knock down is right there to see.
Ray

I'm still not convinced it's legitimate. I think if he's in the fight to win it then he doesn't go down from that shot. But the points that you make are certainly valid enough to make me reconsider. I was viewing the footage and focusing on what Ali was doing, rather than the action as a whole. That's where a more experienced eye like yourself is an advantage. You've certainly made me look at it from a different angle, and for that I'm appreciative.

Even though I'm not entirely convinced I will acknowledge that with your experience it's a better bet to trust your judgement rather than mine.

[rightsideup]

I think the knockdown was legit but the fight should not have been stopped Walcott was distracted by reporter's saying sonny was down for the count. It does not detract from that being a great photo if someone did not know the circumstances of the fight.