who did liston beat to be so highly regarded as good??

[Verstyle]

just because he fought at 175lb doesnt mean he had a light-H punch and chin.


bob satterfield was basically a light-H, yet he had a heavyweights punch. in fact, he was one of the best all time heavyweight punchers.



just because ur 175lb doesnt mean u cant take a heavyweights punch or knockout heavies. it depends on if your power and chin carries with you up to heavy.


in michael spinx case, his power did not. however his chin did.

you'll never get to him i swear u wont

[BKM-]

im still waiting for your point. dont dodge it

Well, he knows you're right.

[SuzieQ49]

Who did Marciano fight? He fought three good fighters far beyond their prime, although walcott put up a real good performance. Would Marciano be so highly regarded if he had one loss on his resume? But when the competiton is crap, you should be able to see past this and look at the fighters capability... Rocky was still a great and so was Liston. Liston beat machen, williams etc good fighters whom are underrated and most know little about them. Liston had good very good boxing skills, was powerful, and smart in the ring... he cleaned up an entire division before loosing to clay and he is rightfully considered a great.

what does marciano have to do with this thread?



and to answer your question......... rocky beat 3 great fighters in archie moore, jersey joe walcott, ezzard charles and he beat very good dangerous top contenders like roland lastarza, old joe louis, and rex layne.

Liston beat machen, williams etc good fighters whom are underrated and most know little about them.

partially agree. however, i think people know a good deal about machen and williams, since they come around ali's era. they certainly are not underated or as understudied as a guy like elmer ray.

He fought three good fighters far beyond their prime

I disagree with this statement.

[SuzieQ49]

floyd patterson x2
cleveland williams x2
zora folley
eddie machen

all HOF'ers!

im confused


williams, folley, machen arn't hall of famers. did you make a mistake?

[RockyMarcianofan00]

once again i will post this link for the ignorant people that think Rocky's competition was crap

http://www.********boxing.com/news.php?p=4488&more=1

where the stars are put
e
a
s
t
s
i
d
e

[SuzieQ49]

the link doesnt work..........


anyone that wants an in depth assessment of marcianos competition(including his early opponents) ask for it, and i will give you one.

just because people dont think marcianos competition was good doesnt mean they are ignorant. it depends on there reasoning for why they think it is bad which make them ignorant. If I wanted too, I could make marcianos competiton look very overated and I could use good info as to why.


40s-50s heavyweights is one of the most understudied eras in history, so usually people critizize louis ,walcott, charles marcianos competiton before even realizing some of the unknown names on there resume who were quality fighters.


marciano did not beat good depth/quantity compared to other great heavy champs. there are many reasons as to why. this quantity/depth issue is MY biggest critsism of him. however, marciano did beat very good quality. quality over quantity.


but this isnt the thread to talk about marciano, so lets stick to the subject of this interesting thread

[RockyMarcianofan00]

http://www.********boxing.com/news.php?p=4488&more=1

where the stars are but
east side with not spaces

just copy the link and put it in the address bar, erase the stars and put east side

but your right this is a thread about liston

[SuzieQ49]

http://www.********boxing.com/news.php?p=4488&more=1

where the stars are but
east side with not spaces

just copy the link and put it in the address bar, erase the stars and put east side

but your right this is a thread about liston

of my fault, I take back what I said earlier. i thought this was from bobby beardons website.

this is an article wrote by james saddler, this is a good one.



only mistake I see is regarding carmine vingo. the article incorrectley states Vingo as being "220lb". vingo in fact was 6'4 190-200lb during his very short career.

[SuzieQ49]

Listons pre title competition was excellent. he virtually wiped out the whole divisions top contenders excluding harold johnson(who was campaigning for light-H title only at the time). the only top heavyweight contenders he didnt fight was archie moore(who by now was in his decline) and ingemar johanssen(who wanted no part of liston).


patterson victories were incredible. the fact both fights were 1 round dominations should defintley be given extra empathis on the quality of victory. patterson is very underated today, I think hes a top 20 heavyweight of all time. patterson was also hard to put down for the 10 count(in fact only liston was able to accomplish this feat TWICE). blowing away an all time great like patterson twice is something that is defintley a big deal. Patterson did adopt a bad game plan in the fight because he froze up and started to brawl, but thats all part of the game right?

by charles farrell:

I asked Floyd who the hardest puncher he’d ever faced was. I thought I knew the answer. But Patterson surprised me.

“Ingemar Johansson.”

“But Floyd, you fought Liston twice. Ingemar Johansson?”

Floyd smiled his characteristic self-deprecating smile. “Oh, but when I fought Ingemar, I thought I was going to win.”


Henry Cooper’s manager was quoted as saying, “If we saw Sonny Liston coming, we’d quickly cross the street.”








certain champions like liston, should not be penalized for his lack of title defenses since he cleaned up the division pre title plus he ran into muhammad ali.





eddie machen and cleveland williams IMO are both top 50 heavyweights of all time. Liston beat them both decisevley. He blew away cleveland williams twice, and no contender at the time wanted to fight williams. He then easily outboxed a master boxer in eddie machen over 12 good paced rounds, proving he could not only score knockouts, but could also outbox and outpoint world class fighters.

"if I had one weak spot anywhere, in my body, my chin, or my heart, it wouldve showed up with all the whuppin' he put on me in the first round. But I was never really hurt bad, no matter how it looked. I knew what was going on. Even before I sat down, I was thinkin to myself 'this cat's gotta put it to me like that for 9 more rounds to win this fight, and I don't think he can do it.' " - Sonny Liston talks about first cleveland williams fight





Zora Folley is another very good heavyweight who ranks along with machen and williams, but i rank folley victory slightly lower. folley had a glass jaw, and was knocked out 4 times in his prime by lighthitters(jones)/or B level fighters(summerlin,young jack johnson,alejandro lavorante). I think because of this, it made folley much more vunerable against a guy like liston. still, liston had to penetrate through folleys excellent defense and boxing skills to score the Knockout.


the next crop of heavies he beat pre title were good top 10 contenders like

hard hittting 6'3 205lb mike de john who liston destroyed in 6 one sided rounds in one of the best preformances of his career.

"one of the most brutal outpourings of punishment in recent heavyweight history."- miami herald on liston-de john fight

De john called liston "the hardest hitter I ever faced".


6' 205lb wayne bethea- this was perhaps listons peak fight. he literally went out there showing speed we never seen before and destroyed bethea in 58 seconds. it was the ONLY time bethea was ever stopped in his career. Bethea had never even been down before this fight.


6'3 215lb nino valdes- valdes was past his prime but not shot. valdes still had his full power, and was still a dangerous fringe contender.

6' 195lb Roy Harris- this fight was so one sided, outclass would be an understatement to describe this fight. harris was 30-1 with his only loss coming to patterson. liston made harris look like a 2nd rate amatuer, and liston could have really hurt him if he wanted too, but eased off in the end.


albert westphal declared liston "the best fighter i ever saw." when the reporter asked westphal if he would like to fight liston again, westhphal said "no."



Nino valdes said "being hit by liston was like being kicked by a mule. Sonny was the strongest man I ever fought and he is very tough."


so if i break it down


liston beat a great heavyweight: Floyd Patterson 2x

Liston beat very good dangerous top contenders: Eddie Machen, Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley


Liston beat good top 10 contender heavyweights or B level contenders: Roy Harris, Mike De John, Wayne Bethea, past his prime nino valdes, Marty Marshall


Liston beat a good set of fringe contenders/top journeyman: Albert Westphal, Johnny Summerlin, Bert Whitehurst, Willie Besmanoff, Howard King, Amos "big train" lincoln, Chuck Wepner, Henry Clark, Gerhard Zech




thats a very solid resume

[butterfly1964]

Listons pre title competition was excellent. he virtually wiped out the whole divisions top contenders excluding harold johnson(who was campaigning for light-H title only at the time). the only top heavyweight contenders he didnt fight was archie moore(who by now was in his decline) and ingemar johanssen(who wanted no part of liston).


patterson victories were incredible. the fact both fights were 1 round dominations should defintley be given extra empathis on the quality of victory. patterson is very underated today, I think hes a top 20 heavyweight of all time. patterson was also hard to put down for the 10 count(in fact only liston was able to accomplish this feat TWICE). blowing away an all time great like patterson twice is something that is defintley a big deal. Patterson did adopt a bad game plan in the fight because he froze up and started to brawl, but thats all part of the game right?

by charles farrell:

I asked Floyd who the hardest puncher he’d ever faced was. I thought I knew the answer. But Patterson surprised me.

“Ingemar Johansson.”

“But Floyd, you fought Liston twice. Ingemar Johansson?”

Floyd smiled his characteristic self-deprecating smile. “Oh, but when I fought Ingemar, I thought I was going to win.”


Henry Cooper’s manager was quoted as saying, “If we saw Sonny Liston coming, we’d quickly cross the street.”








certain champions like liston, should not be penalized for his lack of title defenses since he cleaned up the division pre title plus he ran into muhammad ali.





eddie machen and cleveland williams IMO are both top 50 heavyweights of all time. Liston beat them both decisevley. He blew away cleveland williams twice, and no contender at the time wanted to fight williams. He then easily outboxed a master boxer in eddie machen over 12 good paced rounds, proving he could not only score knockouts, but could also outbox and outpoint world class fighters.

"if I had one weak spot anywhere, in my body, my chin, or my heart, it wouldve showed up with all the whuppin' he put on me in the first round. But I was never really hurt bad, no matter how it looked. I knew what was going on. Even before I sat down, I was thinkin to myself 'this cat's gotta put it to me like that for 9 more rounds to win this fight, and I don't think he can do it.' " - Sonny Liston talks about first cleveland williams fight





Zora Folley is another very good heavyweight who ranks along with machen and williams, but i rank folley victory slightly lower. folley had a glass jaw, and was knocked out 4 times in his prime by lighthitters(jones)/or B level fighters(summerlin,young jack johnson,alejandro lavorante). I think because of this, it made folley much more vunerable against a guy like liston. still, liston had to penetrate through folleys excellent defense and boxing skills to score the Knockout.


the next crop of heavies he beat pre title were good top 10 contenders like

hard hittting 6'3 205lb mike de john who liston destroyed in 6 one sided rounds in one of the best preformances of his career.

"one of the most brutal outpourings of punishment in recent heavyweight history."- miami herald on liston-de john fight

De john called liston "the hardest hitter I ever faced".


6' 205lb wayne bethea- this was perhaps listons peak fight. he literally went out there showing speed we never seen before and destroyed bethea in 58 seconds. it was the ONLY time bethea was ever stopped in his career. Bethea had never even been down before this fight.


6'3 215lb nino valdes- valdes was past his prime but not shot. valdes still had his full power, and was still a dangerous fringe contender.

6' 195lb Roy Harris- this fight was so one sided, outclass would be an understatement to describe this fight. harris was 30-1 with his only loss coming to patterson. liston made harris look like a 2nd rate amatuer, and liston could have really hurt him if he wanted too, but eased off in the end.


albert westphal declared liston "the best fighter i ever saw." when the reporter asked westphal if he would like to fight liston again, westhphal said "no."



Nino valdes said "being hit by liston was like being kicked by a mule. Sonny was the strongest man I ever fought and he is very tough."


so if i break it down


liston beat a great heavyweight: Floyd Patterson 2x

Liston beat very good dangerous top contenders: Eddie Machen, Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley


Liston beat good top 10 contender heavyweights or B level contenders: Roy Harris, Mike De John, Wayne Bethea, past his prime nino valdes, Marty Marshall


Liston beat a good set of fringe contenders/top journeyman: Albert Westphal, Johnny Summerlin, Bert Whitehurst, Willie Besmanoff, Howard King, Amos "big train" lincoln, Chuck Wepner, Henry Clark, Gerhard Zech




thats a very solid resume

nice post. ain't no shame in losing to muhammad ali.