Since the period 1930-1960 to 2013 the trend in boxing quality and skill has

[Humean]

you can pick any decade and they outshine the current crop,,

canelo is hugely hyped up, but he would get destroyed by fernando vargas at the same age,,,,

just look at past p4p lists, like even 10 years ago

1. roy jones - floyd
2. forrest - ward
3. shane - rigo
4. tszyu - bradley
5. lennox - jmm
6. Mab - manny
7. morales- froch
8. rafeal marquez- wlad
9. oscar - d. garcia
10. winky- m. garcia

I think the young guys are good, but there is no roy jones, floyd, mab, morales, oscar, lennox, bowe, mercer, lopez, honestly now he have guys on the same level as akwinade, grant as top heavys

you knew in 79 SRL and hearns were going to be great
same thing with roy and oscar in 94

the top level talent has gone down tremendously over the last decade,,
stick any of the top welters from 80s and 90s and they would be ruling the welters now,,, take donald curry vs alexander, julien jackson vs broner, ike quartey or tito would be destroying guys like ghost, berto, maidana, etc,,,

Just a huge drop in talent across the board in every weight class except for the 115 and under

I'm not sure if it definitely correct, although it might be, that people knew in 79 that Leonard and Hearns were going to be great. I think they were hyped fighters who very much fulfilled their hype as time wore on. I think your comparisons are unfair, not properly comparing like for like. I think things go in cycles, particularly particular divisions and I actually think there has been an upswing in the 140 and 147 divisions in the past few years compared to the previous few years which were a bit of a decline.

The p4p comparison you made doesn't show quite the noticable decline to me that it is to you. I might pick your ten years ago list over the current but only just and remember we do have a slightly better vantage point to judge your first p4p list over your second one.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

The overall talent seems to have generally declined in time, IMO.

yeah i agree, i think it has alot to do with guys being "protected" in the early stages of their career since ppv took over the sport,,,

look at guys like marlon starling, curry, norris, mccallum, jackson, they all took tough fights early in their career, whereas now guys first test is usually vs a washed up name ala garcia vs morales, I really think it hinders development and also the lack of inactivity,, guys usually started their career by fighting 8 or so times a year for the first few years and took tough fights as they developed,,
lack of inactivity, plus protecting prospects i think have caused the most in terms of why talent has declined

[Sugar Adam Ali]

I'm not sure if it definitely correct, although it might be, that people knew in 79 that Leonard and Hearns were going to be great. I think they were hyped fighters who very much fulfilled their hype as time wore on. I think your comparisons are unfair, not properly comparing like for like. I think things go in cycles, particularly particular divisions and I actually think there has been an upswing in the 140 and 147 divisions in the past few years compared to the previous few years which were a bit of a decline.

The p4p comparison you made doesn't show quite the noticable decline to me that it is to you. I might pick your ten years ago list over the current but only just and remember we do have a slightly better vantage point to judge your first p4p list over your second one.

you make some good points, but even you take guys like curry, norris, mercer, etc may not be ATGs but they would wipe the floor with the current guys,,,
why do you think all the top guys are in their 30s-- floyd, manny, jmm are all the remnants from a better period of boxing,,,
i dont think we will ever see another manny or floyd for a very long time,,
broner, garcia, ggg are all good solid fighters but none scream out ATG or even HOF type talent,,,
Most of the guys coming up or young champs are in the same league as jermain taylor, zab judah, jesse james leija,, good fighters, i just dont see any great talent anymore on the horizon,, and no matter the time period, there is usually great talent coming up,, when ali was getting old you had srl and hearns and when they were getting old you had tyson, nunn, mccallum and when they started to wane you had toney, roy, oscar, and then shane, tito, mab, morales, and when they faded you had manny, floyd, but i just dont see who will carry the torch,, obviously ward is a very talented fighter, but he isnt going to ever be the face of boxing,,,

[Humean]

you make some good points, but even you take guys like curry, norris, mercer, etc may not be ATGs but they would wipe the floor with the current guys,,,
why do you think all the top guys are in their 30s-- floyd, manny, jmm are all the remnants from a better period of boxing,,,
i dont think we will ever see another manny or floyd for a very long time,,
broner, garcia, ggg are all good solid fighters but none scream out ATG or even HOF type talent,,,
Most of the guys coming up or young champs are in the same league as jermain taylor, zab judah, jesse james leija,, good fighters, i just dont see any great talent anymore on the horizon,, and no matter the time period, there is usually great talent coming up,, when ali was getting old you had srl and hearns and when they were getting old you had tyson, nunn, mccallum and when they started to wane you had toney, roy, oscar, and then shane, tito, mab, morales, and when they faded you had manny, floyd, but i just dont see who will carry the torch,, obviously ward is a very talented fighter, but he isnt going to ever be the face of boxing,,,

The increasing age of the stars is a phenomenon that other sports seem to have been experiencing so it is not necessarily a sign of decline. Fighters are staying in the amateurs for longer as well today and therefore entering the professional ranks at increasing ages. I think you are being too pessimistic, this year alone has been fantastic. Don't you think you might be seeing this too much through the prism of American boxing? For example you are worried about who will be the face of boxing, well Mayweather may be the face of boxing to an American, even to a Scotsman like myself but is Mayweather the face of boxing to a Japanese fight fan? A Filipino fight fan? Ukrainian? Russian? Mexican?

In regards to Pacquiao what year was it that you thought he was a genuine all time great? Fighters can come from seemingly no where as well as improve significantly over time. Therefore I think there is room for optimism.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

The increasing age of the stars is a phenomenon that other sports seem to have been experiencing so it is not necessarily a sign of decline. Fighters are staying in the amateurs for longer as well today and therefore entering the professional ranks at increasing ages. I think you are being too pessimistic, this year alone has been fantastic. Don't you think you might be seeing this too much through the prism of American boxing? For example you are worried about who will be the face of boxing, well Mayweather may be the face of boxing to an American, even to a Scotsman like myself but is Mayweather the face of boxing to a Japanese fight fan? A Filipino fight fan? Ukrainian? Russian? Mexican?

In regards to Pacquiao what year was it that you thought he was a genuine all time great? Fighters can come from seemingly no where as well as improve significantly over time. Therefore I think there is room for optimism.

all im saying is that the overall talent level has gone down dramatically,, who would you rather have barker, murray, ggg or benn mcclellan, eubanks

and yes manny no one predicted him to be this huge star ATG but he earned it and he took alot of fights, and pretty much fought all the top guys on his way up,,, guys today dont do that,, quillen hasnt, broner hasnt bradley is about the only one to actually fight his way to the top,,

Like i said earlier,, the lack of activity-coupled with fighters being protected has greatly reduced the talent level in todays current fighters

[Humean]

all im saying is that the overall talent level has gone down dramatically,, who would you rather have barker, murray, ggg or benn mcclellan, eubanks

and yes manny no one predicted him to be this huge star ATG but he earned it and he took alot of fights, and pretty much fought all the top guys on his way up,,, guys today dont do that,, quillen hasnt, broner hasnt bradley is about the only one to actually fight his way to the top,,

Like i said earlier,, the lack of activity-coupled with fighters being protected has greatly reduced the talent level in todays current fighters

Benn, McClellan, Eubank certainly but I think Golovkin might be better than all those three although time will tell. I say that as a massive Nigel Benn fan as he was pretty much my first boxing hero.

Like I said I probably agree that the 80s were the best decade but I'm not sure the decline since then has been as pronounced as you think. Also I think we are in an upswing in general compared to the previous few years. There is always too much doom and gloom with boxing fans.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Benn, McClellan, Eubank certainly but I think Golovkin might be better than all those three although time will tell. I say that as a massive Nigel Benn fan as he was pretty much my first boxing hero.

Like I said I probably agree that the 80s were the best decade but I'm not sure the decline since then has been as pronounced as you think. Also I think we are in an upswing in general compared to the previous few years. There is always too much doom and gloom with boxing fans.

i will take the guys from the 92-96 olympic teams,,, and you can have the 2000, 04,08 and 2012 teams and take any fighters you want,,

my guys from just 92 and 96 would destroy the guys from the 2000s olympics and you have 4 teams to choose from,,,
Olympics are usually the easiest way to determine a future star,,, and outside of ward and rigo, there hasnt been any studs in over a decade,, that is pretty good evidence that the talent has declined,,,

[Humean]

i will take the guys from the 92-96 olympic teams,,, and you can have the 2000, 04,08 and 2012 teams and take any fighters you want,,

my guys from just 92 and 96 would destroy the guys from the 2000s olympics and you have 4 teams to choose from,,,
Olympics are usually the easiest way to determine a future star,,, and outside of ward and rigo, there hasnt been any studs in over a decade,, that is pretty good evidence that the talent has declined,,,

1992 De La Hoya, Casamayor, McCullough, Byrd
1996, Mayweather, Reid, Jirov, Tarver, Wlad Klitschko
2000, Rigondeaux, Jermain Taylor, Erdei, Ibragimov,
2004, Rigondeaux, Gamboa, Khan, Golovkin, Direll, Ward, Povetkin

2008, and 2012 hard to tell although I'd say that Lomachenko is a definite star for the next few years.

Anyway I am happy with the 2004 lot to be honest.

[Daddy T]

Why stop it at the 60s? the peak in large part with exceptions obviously was 60s to 90s

Anyway these days the top 2 or 3 guys per division are generally real good but from there on down the divisions are weaker than they were 20 or 30 years ago.

[soul_survivor]

The timeframe was simply because of previous debates on here. Whether there has been a decline or not since the 80s is a different question from these arguments. What I want to gauge is the opinions of the trend since 1930-1960 to 2013. Has 1960-2013 seen an up trend or down trend in skill? Did you think boxing skill trended up from 1930 to 1990 or that it stayed pretty much the same throughout the decades between 1930 to 1990?

1930-60 saw possibly the greatest concentration of fighters ever, Louis, Robinson, Pep, Armstrong and so on and so forth. But the 60- late 80s gave us Ali, Leonard, Duran and so on. The gradual decline in truly great fighters started in the late 80s, ofc we still have iconic heavyweights back then and great lil men in Chavez and Whitaker but the concentration of great fighters was severely diluted.

Say, over the last 18 years, from 95-2013, how many great fighters of this era would you pick to win against former greats in similar weight divisions? The greatest fighter from middleweight to light-heavyweight I've seen in my life time is probably RJJ, in fantasy match ups, he would be paired against the likes of Robinson, Hagler, Monzon, Hearns, Leonard, Spinks, Qawi, Foster and so on. RJJ, for all his gifts could not take a punch and may not have lasted with the relentless pressure Monzon or Robinson would have put on him at middleweight and I just can't imagine him out thinking someone like Hagler. He might have been able to beat the great Foster or Spinks at light heavy, maybe Hearns and Leonard at middleweight but the Qawi definitely carried the punch and the never say die attitude to drag Jones into the trenches. Like it or not but everyone Jones was dragged into the trenches he lost.

The same assessment can be made with most great fighters in that 18 year period compared to some of the great fighters of the past. I actually think a prime Oscar and Tito would be the most competitive at welter or light middleweight, when compared to the FAR smaller welters in Floyd or Manny or Bradley etc.