Robinson vs Zale.. Who ducked who?

[mickey malone]

Hi to all,

GJC, a true legend on this forum, who would've been a young man during the 40's and 50's, once told me that Zale was a 'ducker.'

Sadly, he passed away before i could quiz him as to why at least one fight vs Robinson never materialized.. Both were prime at 160 between 48-51, and it must have been some serious ducks going down for these two, never to have met in a boxing ring..

Love Zale's fights with Graziano, and the war with Cerdan!. Had a great fight with Billy Conn also, but with no SRR, his resume is'nt quite at the level of the more accomplished atg's, so i'll reserve judgement of Zale until some of our more experienced posters have responded...

Poet, Scott, Jab, Surgeon, Ray Corso.. Look fwd to your views in particular, but anyone who know's a lot about Zale really..

Regards, mm

[Ray Corso]

I liked Zale style and he had a good punch too but he was a small middleweight! Barely 5'8" and weighed 157 most times and was pretty slow a foot too! If you look at his opponents listed you'll see very few top ten ranked fighters on there. Other than Rocky and Cerdan and one with Conn theres not much to choose from! Not only is Sugarman missing but Jake is too, I don't know the reason for not being in with top tier guys but he did have some trouble with Rocky and Rocky's folks wanted nothing to do with Jake or Sugar! I think the Cerdan match up was a terrific fight and that had potential to be a great series of fights!
Zale had a two handed attack that was developed by Ray Arcel and although he lead with his face at times he did have good defense! Ray

[mickey malone]

I liked Zale style and he had a good punch too but he was a small middleweight! Barely 5'8" and weighed 157 most times and was pretty slow a foot too! If you look at his opponents listed you'll see very few top ten ranked fighters on there. Other than Rocky and Cerdan and one with Conn theres not much to choose from! Not only is Sugarman missing but Jake is too, I don't know the reason for not being in with top tier guys but he did have some trouble with Rocky and Rocky's folks wanted nothing to do with Jake or Sugar! I think the Cerdan match up was a terrific fight and that had potential to be a great series of fights!
Zale had a two handed attack that was developed by Ray Arcel and although he lead with his face at times he did have good defense! Ray

Sure, Zale was a small middle, but it is'nt the reason why he never fought SRR, who himself, was only a blown up welter at the time...Ray may have been taller but it's hardly Hagler Hearns or Foster Tiger..
Small middle vs a big welter = match made in heaven, and Robinson who was as tenacious at the negotiating table as he was in the ring, surely must have wanted this one??.. Sure i've seen a doc somewhere in which a Zale handler, says his man would've beaten the great SRR.. No good in hindsight though is it.

[Humean]

Zale retired in 1948, Robinson started being a middleweight in about 1949. In 1948 Zale was 34 and had been a pro for 14 years. He probably made the right decision to retire after the Cerdan defeat. I have no knowledge about who Zale supposedly 'ducked' and even though he could have fought Robinson with Robinson being effectively a welterweight it was not Robinson that he most significantly missed fighting. Zale's career is strange because of the impact on the second world war. He missed 4 fighting years, when he would have been in his prime between the ages of 28-32. When his middleweight championship was finally unfrozen after the war and he went to defend it he fought a guy in Graziano who appears to be well down the list of the most deserving challengers. On the flip side the Graziano fight turned into a trilogy of classics! I doubt that Zale would have beaten middleweight Robinson circa 1949-1952 even at his best.

[Sugarj]

I don't think it was a question of either ducking the other, merely a timing issue regarding weight divisions.

Zale retired after the Cerdan fight which was a year or two before Robinson moved up to middleweight. I don't doubt that if Zale was still campaigning at middleweight in the early 50s that Robinson would have met him. I'm sure that Robinson would have met Cerdan too in due course if it wasn't for his early death.

[NChristo]

Hi to all,

GJC, a true legend on this forum, who would've been a young man during the 40's and 50's, once told me that Zale was a 'ducker.'

Sadly, he passed away before i could quiz him as to why at least one fight vs Robinson never materialized.. Both were prime at 160 between 48-51, and it must have been some serious ducks going down for these two, never to have met in a boxing ring..

Zale held the title 'hostage' while he went too war from 42-46, never fought Burley, LaMotta, Booker, Williams etc previous to then which he maybe should of but when he went too war any chance they had at the belt was gone.

Both were prime at 160 between 48-51

Zale retired in 48 and Robinson was the Welterweight champ at that time, more then capable of fighting at Middle of course but he didn't take the MW title until 51

If you look at his opponents listed you'll see very few top ten ranked fighters on there. Other than Rocky and Cerdan and one with Conn theres not much to choose from!

He's got Fred Apostoli, Georgie Abrams and Al Hostak on there, nothing to sneeze at, but, he should still have at least some of the above names on there and probably would of at least gotten a chance too fight them if he never went to war.

My guess is it was a timing thing although Zale didn't really seem too like giving a lot of worthy challengers a shot.

[Humean]

He's got Fred Apostoli, Georgie Abrams and Al Hostak on there, nothing to sneeze at but he should have at least some of the above names on there and probably would of at least gotten a chance at them if he never went to war.

I think that is exactly right.

[Humean]

Fred Apostoli, Georgie Abrams and Al Hostak

People might balk at this but I think these three names are comparable in quality to Holman Williams and Charley Burley. Burley's reputation in particular has gotten way out of control in recent years.

[Ray Corso]

M&M, I didn't say that Zales size discounted him from fighting anyone it was just an observation just like me saying I liked his style!
As for Sugar Ray being and "oversized" welterweight the man fought at 160 for many many years and fought the best and was the Champ and the Best Ever!! How and why you would discredit him as a full middleweight at 5'11" and weighin consistantly at 160 once he was acclamated to the weight class.
Humean has it correct when stating the years weren't aligned for the bout!!

As to a match between them I think Sugar Ray handles Zale!
No disrespect meant to Zale but he would be taylored made for Sugar!
Ray.

[mickey malone]

Zale retired in 1948, Robinson started being a middleweight in about 1949. In 1948 Zale was 34 and had been a pro for 14 years. He probably made the right decision to retire after the Cerdan defeat. I have no knowledge about who Zale supposedly 'ducked' and even though he could have fought Robinson with Robinson being effectively a welterweight it was not Robinson that he most significantly missed fighting. Zale's career is strange because of the impact on the second world war. He missed 4 fighting years, when he would have been in his prime between the ages of 28-32. When his middleweight championship was finally unfrozen after the war and he went to defend it he fought a guy in Graziano who appears to be well down the list of the most deserving challengers. On the flip side the Graziano fight turned into a trilogy of classics! I doubt that Zale would have beaten middleweight Robinson circa 1949-1952 even at his best.

Informative post, and explains the time factors very well. SRR however, did start dabbling between the weights in around 1946 when he fought Artie Levine, and continued to do so until 1950 when he won his first mw title.. But he was still a defending ww champ throughout that time aswell, and Zale had his hands full with Graziano and Cerdan.. If Zale was financially secure, i can understand why he did'nt hang around for Robinson.. Cerdan was a brutal fight, so i can't criticize his decision to retire. Think SRR would have stopped him aswell, but sooner.