What if Patterson beat Liston?

[Capaedia]

Liston had an even greater edge in power over Ali and it didn't serve him well. Again, in my opinion, Ali by lopsided decision.

So what? Frazier had less physical gifts than either. But that didnt stop the style from dictating the fight.

I think Patterson would be competitive. Maybe he could even sc**** by young (raw) Cassius with a win


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[Boxing Bob]

So what? Frazier had less physical gifts than either. But that didnt stop the style from dictating the fight.

I think Patterson would be competitive. Maybe he could even sc**** by young (raw) Cassius with a win


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I don't share your high opinion of Patterson and I don't think he could have ever been competitive vs Ali. There's a reason Cus protected Patterson for years

[Sugarj]

I watched Ali-Patterson II live on closed circuit TV, and I've seen the fight several times since. I'm convinced that Ali carried Floyd early in that fight, allowing him some dignity that he didn't get in their first match.

Ali himself praised Patterson as the 'best boxer' he ever met........and its not like Patterson's form level at world class was poor at that point too.

He'd just outpointed Oscar Bonavena (who gave Ali a very tough fight a year before). Not too long before that he'd had ridiculously close (possibly contentious) fights with Quarry and Ellis.

Granted he was old in 1972, but I can honestly see an early 60s Patterson being a real challenge for an early 60s Ali. Ali was always susceptable to the left hook (Cooper, Banks, Frazier) and when you look at what Patterson was capable of doing with the left hook (Johannsson 2), it makes me wonder if 1962/63 might have been a touch early for a title fight for Ali.

[Sugarj]

I don't share your high opinion of Patterson and I don't think he could have ever been competitive vs Ali. There's a reason Cus protected Patterson for years

He may have been small and vulnerable around the chin, but he was certainly world class. The Archie Moore fight in 1956 shows how good he could be, but even post prime (and Liston) in the mid to late 60s he was more than a match for the likes of other world class heavyweights such as Machen, Cooper, Chuvalo, Quarry, Ellis and Bonavena.

He just wouldn't survive against the Liston's, Foreman's and Frazier's.

In the early 60s Ali/Clay was very raw and disjointed. He looked awful at times against Cooper and the Doug Jones fight was close. Is it really crazy to think that the Patterson of that era might have been at least as tough a foe as Jones?

I'll tell you something quite honestly. If Patterson met Ali instead of Jones that night in 1963, he'd have had a good chance of a decision win.

[Boxing Bob]

He may have been small and vulnerable around the chin, but he was certainly world class. The Archie Moore fight in 1956 shows how good he could be, but even post prime (and Liston) in the mid to late 60s he was more than a match for the likes of other world class heavyweights such as Machen, Cooper, Chuvalo, Quarry, Ellis and Bonavena.

He just wouldn't survive against the Liston's, Foreman's and Frazier's.

In the early 60s Ali/Clay was very raw and disjointed. He looked awful at times against Cooper and the Doug Jones fight was close. Is it really crazy to think that the Patterson of that era might have been at least as tough a foe as Jones?

I'll tell you something quite honestly. If Patterson met Ali instead of Jones that night in 1963, he'd have had a good chance of a decision win.

I agree that Patterson was world class, and you named some of his ring accomplishments, and there are many. But lets not forget that he went life and death with Rademacher (in his pro debut), was put down 9 times is 3 bouts vs Johansson (who I view as absolutely nothing special),and was koed twice by Liston who Ali conquered twice. I know the first Ali/Patterson fight was 3 or 4 years past when Patterson was champ, but Ali stopped him in 12 and was a mile ahead at the stoppage. My opinion is more that I think Ali was that good not that Patterson was bad

[Sugarj]

I agree that Patterson was world class, and you named some of his ring accomplishments, and there are many. But lets not forget that he went life and death with Rademacher (in his pro debut), was put down 9 times is 3 bouts vs Johansson (who I view as absolutely nothing special),and was koed twice by Liston who Ali conquered twice. I know the first Ali/Patterson fight was 3 or 4 years past when Patterson was champ, but Ali stopped him in 12 and was a mile ahead at the stoppage. My opinion is more that I think Ali was that good not that Patterson was bad

Have you ever seen the Rademacher bout? Patterson dropped him something like six times and all but ruined his pro career just as it started, it was a mismatch.......far from 'life and death'. Granted, Patterson did get knocked down once early on, but we all knew his chin was dodgy.

You're right about Johansson, he was nothing special; but neither was Patterson's chin. The vast majority of those knockdowns happened within seconds of each other in fight one. Johansson did have a good right hand, that is not to be disputed.

As for losing to Liston. Hardly a disgrace considering Liston's power. But the 'triangle' comparison that he lost to a guy who was twice beaten by Ali has no basis of analysis of how a 'green' Ali in 1963 might have done in a fight with Patterson.

As for when Ali did meet Patterson in 1965, as I've already said in a previous post, Patterson was severely reduced with a back injury. It wasn't a post fight excuse either for fanboys, you could see his pain round after round. He barely threw any worthwhile punches after round one and rather than quitting, he took his beating like a man. He was capable of much more than he showed in that Ali fight. Its worth watching the Patterson vs Chuvalo fight from that year to see what Patterson was still capable of in the mid 60s.

He wouldn't have beaten Ali in 1965, but the fight would have been much more competititve if he wasn't injured. But 1965 Ali was rather better than 1962/63 Ali. Patterson might have been too good back then.