just for the record who won hagler or leonard ?

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  • BlueBaureit99
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    #41
    I remember it like this: Hagler didn't win a single round of the first 5 or 6 rounds. Then in the second half he won about half of the rounds. So I got Leonard winning pretty clearly.

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    • Humean
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      #42
      More effective with the punches that he landed, but Leonard was making him hit thin air with a lot of them too.. I'd say it was the punches Hagler missed with, that swayed the judges in Leonard's favor..
      The problem with scoring it like that is that you give too much credit to defence. The key part of scoring is clean and hard punching and I think Hagler achieved that more than Leonard. Leonard landed clean but i'm not sure he landed enough that was hard. I think if Hagler was the biggest name the judges would have been swayed towards Hagler but that is the way of things, not sure it can be improved upon.

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      • Humean
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        #43
        Heres my scorecard and descriptions of rounds I did about a year ago. Watch the fight sometime and see how accurate my interpretation is. Like everyone I have bias, however unconscious, so maybe I was seeing too much Hagler and not enough Leonard.

        L H
        1 10 9
        2 10 9
        3 9 10
        4 10 9
        5 9 10
        6 9 10
        7 9 10
        8 9 10
        9 9 10
        10 9 10
        11 10 9
        12 9 10

        112 116

        1 Quiet round, 2 hard hagler body shots but leonard does more throughout round without doing too much in particular, a couple of good shots around haglers guard and a pretty strong right hand, definitely a leonard round. 10- 9 LEONARD
        2 close but leonard definitely edges it with scoring combinations, he is landing cleaner than hagler and throwing and landing a bit more 10- 9 LEONARD
        3 very close, hagler gets best of first half with his jab and landed good straight left hand out of his southpaw stance, but leonard takes the second half although hagler lands a couple right at the end along with leonard. I'm going to give this to hagler because it was close and I think he may have blocked with his gloves a few punches that people thought that leonard scored with. Still close though and a scorer could give it either way 10-9 HAGLER
        4 very close again, hagler missed a lot in the first minute but landed quite a lot later, 2 or 3 left hands landed from southpaw stance, none with too much power though but he did rip quite a few to the body. Leonard landed some good ones to body also but the 2 best were low blows, leonard landed a flashy and hard 4 punch combination in the round. Could go either way but the flashy 4 punch combination just edges it to leonard for me. 10-9 LEONARD
        5 great round, both men throwing and landing a lot, leonard has a lot of success especially in the first half of fight but hagler has even more, hagler lands the best and hardest punches and seems to hurt leonard twice, once to the head mid round with a right uppercut from orthodox stance and the second to the body right at the end. The body punching is really bothering leonard, he keeps wanting to push hagler away when hagler is close and after hagler hits him to the body. Close round in some ways but still clearly a hagler round, looks to be beating leonard up a bit and has closed the distance, even pinning leonard on the ropes for the first time. 10-9 HAGLER
        6 again very close, both fighters looked fatigued from previous rounds exertion, leonard may have landed the greater volume but apart from leonard's good combination at the end of the round his punches were lacking in power whereas the punches hagler was landing seemed more powerful including his right jab from the southpaw stance. Again you could give this round either way but I think the more dominant punches were landing from hagler and that the ring generalship that leonard had displayed earlier in the fight was no longer apparent. 10-9 HAGLER
        7 both still looking tired, leonard has little strength, lands a couple of good combinations but his punches tend not to have much sting on them, hagler looks a bit slow at times but his shots are landing with more power. hagler clearly wins this round and wins it mostly with a nice sharp crisp solid right jab from the southpaw stance, also landing straight left crosses. Clear hagler round 10-9 HAGLER
        8 hagler giving leonard a real beating in this round, solid right jabs and the odd solid left crosses as well as ripping solid body punches from both hands, extremely dominant round from hagler, leonard looks like he has little left and cannot back hagler up as his punches lack power. 10-9 HAGLER
        9 great round, both throwing and landing a lot, both exhausted by the end. Leonard probably lands the more, at least he throws more and in bunches of cominations and blistering speed, not clear what percentage are actually landing though and again there is not enough power on them to back hagler up. Hagler's shots are landing harder, again the right jab is landing stiff on leonard and is being followed by straight left crosses and ripping body shots. You could give this round to leonard but i feel that hagler is actually doing the better work despite the fast flashy leonard combinations. tremendous heart from both men. 10-9 HAGLER
        10 good round, same pattern as previous rounds, hagler is winning with the solid right jab and shots to the body, hagler is blocking a lot of leonards work and what is getting through is not powerful enough, leonard cannot back hagler up. 10-9 HAGLER
        11 leonard wins this round by throwing and landing more than hagler, particularly the left hook, again there is not enough power there to back hagler up but hagler is extremely fatigued and is not throwing enough with conviction, he still lands the strongest punches in the round, namely the right jab, particularly in the first half of round but he misses far too much and leonard looks fresher and faster, first round in ages where leonard looks in the better condition and more comfortable in the ring. 10-9 LEONARD
        12 another round for hagler, fairly close round but hagler landed the better stuff, don't be fooled by leonard's flash stuff!!!!! 10-9 HAGLER


        CONCLUSION
        I feel that the plausible scores ranged from 115-113 for leonard to 116-112 hagler but that 115-113 hagler and 116-112 hagler are probably the two correct scores.

        The way I saw it:
        Leonard definitely won rounds 1,2,11
        Hagler definitely won rounds 5,7,8,10, 12

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        • mickey malone
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          #44
          Originally posted by Humean
          The problem with scoring it like that is that you give too much credit to defence. The key part of scoring is clean and hard punching and I think Hagler achieved that more than Leonard. Leonard landed clean but i'm not sure he landed enough that was hard. I think if Hagler was the biggest name the judges would have been swayed towards Hagler but that is the way of things, not sure it can be improved upon.
          If it's about hitting without being hit, Leonard won it fair and square.

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          • Humean
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            #45
            But Leonard did get hit!

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            • mickey malone
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              #46
              Originally posted by Humean
              But Leonard did get hit!
              Yes, but not as frequently as Hagler.. Power did'nt come into it as neither man was knocked down, and imo that's exactly what Marvin needed in order to have won that dc convincingly..

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              • Humean
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                #47
                Yes, but not as frequently as Hagler.. Power did'nt come into it as neither man was knocked down, and imo that's exactly what Marvin needed in order to have won that dc convincingly..
                Power always comes into it because it is a key component of clean punching, and it is clean punching that largely rules the roost when judging a boxing round. A clean punch with little power on it cannot be counted the same as a clean pounch that is hard. Obviously there is then a judgment to be made between quantity and quality (hard, power). Of course there can be great difficulty making these judgments, it is no doubt easier on average when sitting ringside judging than watching on tv.

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                • mickey malone
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                  #48
                  Originally posted by Humean
                  Power always comes into it because it is a key component of clean punching, and it is clean punching that largely rules the roost when judging a boxing round. A clean punch with little power on it cannot be counted the same as a clean pounch that is hard. Obviously there is then a judgment to be made between quantity and quality (hard, power). Of course there can be great difficulty making these judgments, it is no doubt easier on average when sitting ringside judging than watching on tv.
                  Yes but in Hagler's case, it did'nt have the desired effect. Leonard stayed relatively unmarked while peppering Hagler with eye catching combos that not only connected, but also confused and frustrated him.. Leonard's greatest performance imo.

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                  • Humean
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                    #49
                    Yes but in Hagler's case, it did'nt have the desired effect. Leonard stayed relatively unmarked while peppering Hagler with eye catching combos that not only connected, but also confused and frustrated him.. Leonard's greatest performance imo.
                    I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

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                    • mickey malone
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                      #50
                      Originally posted by Humean
                      I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
                      Most people do lol, there'll always be a close divide on this one..



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