Comparing the skills of Sugar Ray Robinson to Sugar Ray Leonard

[Ray Corso]

There's been a misnomer about hand speed since the 1976 Olympic Team used the technique to their advantage.
Hand speed should also include "meaningful punches" not just speed void of power.
Using a "shoe shine" combo isn't the same as a jab/righ hand finish with a hook combo. Yes the shoe shine is faster but it doesn't make the impression on your opponent as the three punch combination does.
So if your considering "flash" as speed I can see that conclusion.
Personal I'll take "flush" over flash which gives Sugar Ray the
advantage of speed over Leonard.

theolefthook I can't see Leonard having more ring generalship over Robinson! Robinson could figure out an opponent in the first round and decide if boxing or pressing would give him a victory. Leonard would strictly box on the outside for at least a few rounds to simply score and be safe. If Sugar Ray felt the center of the ring was his he took it. I think ring generalship is defined by movement these days and not by inflicting the correct methodology for victory on your opponent.
I think this observation happens today because the majority of boxers only box. Very few can move on the outside and step inside to work there. Hell in todays boxing most refs don't allow inside fighting, they don't know what it is either.
Amateur boxing has a huge influence on pro boxing now as far as techniques & methodology. To bad it was more interesting years ago when the greater fighters could easily be identified from the one dimensional ones.

Leonard does nothing better than Sugarman, fight, box, golf, dance, play cards....................although Leonard was a pretty good gymnast at my gym years ago. As a 20 year old he could
cart wheel and do flips all over the place. Very good athlete but not TBE!!! hahahaha................

Ray

[Hawkins]

I think the only real ding in Robinson's armor would have to be classified as tactical. He went to to toe with several individuals he could have technically outclassed and I think that may fall under the ring generalship heading, especially if you consider that to be imposing your will upon your opponent. However, most of those instances occurred during Robinson's MW days.

[The Old LefHook]

Fully loaded punches in bunches are not as fast as the Flashy shoe shine. Robinson was almost always fully loaded. Fully loaded punches are not likely to ever be thrown faster and smoother than the combo he KO'd Bobo Olsen with.

The fight I could not remember was with Bobby Dykes. To see Robinson do some shoe shine and some showboating of his own, go there. It is easy enough to find. One sees that, indeed, it may be showboating which has evolved by leaps and bounds, not the overall art of pugilism after all.

I think Ray (Corso) is correct in his history of the influence of amateur boxing on professional ranks. This is something I had never put together until he brought it to our attention sometime back on this forum. I think he is also correct in stating (and here I paraphrase) that modern fans tend to confuse movement with defensive skill. Movement does work well defensively. Instead of a deep medicine bag, many fighters only have well conditioned legs as a defense. Two prime examples would be Popo and Martinez. In the ring these champs moved like tennis players on pep juice. But when the limit of their specialty was met by deep medicine bags of traditional skill, they folded right up like novices, clearly outclassed.

Robinson had a lot more defense than generally given credit for by modern fans, who having become used to the movement of Ali and Leonard, expect the most obvious displays of evasiveness before they acknowledge a man has defensive skill. This is only because they are unable to see Robinson's defensive skill. If they could see it, they would acknowledge it. They are not being unfair, It is simply beyond the capabilities of a casual modern fan to see and understand the details of Robinson's defensive work in the ring, unless Robby happens to be moving at the moment a la Ali or Leonard.

I rate Leonard a tad higher in ring generalship because at the end of the day he got hit less, I believe (but without any real statistics to back me up) and played the do not get hit game a little more wisely, according to my eyes.

Against Maxim, the sugar man fought a perfect fight--for a seventy-five degree arena, that is. History is cruel. What Robinson proved that night is that he was the second best light heavyweight in the world as long as the temperature stayed below 100. The best was Archie Moore, still waiting in the wings for his chance, a chance which only came with a huge payoff for life to Maxim and bird of prey Kearns. But Robinson will never get credit for his achievement from history, simply because the record book reads another way. It is a close but no cigar situation.

Even Robinson probably lacked the durability to defend a light heavyweight crown many times, just as Leonard probably lacked the durability to defend the title he won from Hagler many times against top opposition. Because of the true size of their frames and their bone structure (bone cross-section width), Leonard belonged at middleweight more than Robinson belonged at light heavyweight, and Leonard did not truly belong at middleweight. Willowy Robinson had no business at all at light heavyweight, except that his greatness as a warrior made him seek the challenge. But this is off the subject...

Leonard had his failure as a ring general, too. I do not mean to overlook that. We all know he failed to adapt properly (as in well enough to prevail) in Duran I. This is independent of the argument over whether he usually fought in this manner. The bare fact is that it was a failure of ring generalship that may have lost this fight for Leonard, which he only lost by a notch anyway. Making the issue even less clear is the fact that his splendid ring generalship in Duran II did not get the full test by any means, since Duran was far from fully prepared, all due to out of the ring scheming by Leonard. This, considered one of his greatest victories and displays, is therefore tainted. Fighters cannot completely cheat history, either. They often try, though. Leonard is in the record books as the man who made the mighty Duran quit, so he cheated history that far, which is quite far. But it is also widely known that his mighty display was wasted on a starved shell of an ATG in Duran II, and that Leonard himself set it up this way. This way is completely contrary to what true fans of the sport desire to see and in the end will respect. Myself, I do not respect Leonard as a boxer for this trickery, though I might applaud his survival instinct. History keeps an eye on everything, you see.

Robinson was always satisfied with beating a man in the ring. In those days he barely bothered with trying to beat a man outside the ring, as far as we know, or with trickery employed to face a lesser version. Leonard was constantly on the prowl for these advantages. Is that a parking lot or a ring he fights Hagler in? The only cheat that I know of that Robinson ever tried to put on history was quite minor. One of his KOing wrap-around body shots was deemed illegal by German officials, and Ray lost a tour bout by disqualification. He protested, and this was later changed to a no contest. Rather minor indeed.

Robinson was not a cheater of history, and that is one of the primary reasons he still stands so high. Sore knuckles and all, he went to war against whoever stood before him, and he did it right soon, you might say. Robinson's gripes and his tough negotiating seem to have been mostly centered around money rights, as far as I can tell, which no one holds against him.

Imagine Usain Bolt negotiating to have his challengers wear one pound weights around their ankles. This is analogous to some of Leonard's negotiating tactics and out of ring trickery. This does not achieve the full respect of history or the republic of fans, for what should be obvious reasons. It certainly gets some respect as a boxer, because that is what he was doing, and even more respect as an overall survivor, but also much of the warrior sheen is washed off the contest and especially its meaning. The question to be answered was whether the best Leonard could beat the best Duran with a new plan, not whether the best Leonard could trick, cajole or otherwise bribe Duran's team into signing for an almost immediate rematch unknown to Duran himself, who was partying wildly and eating enough to challenge Diamond Jim Brady to a chow down. The question that all fans wanted answered did not get answered. It was not even Duran's fault. Given proper notice, he would have prepared properly. The reason that question did not get answered lies fully on the shoulders of Leonard, who wanted a victory in the record books, even if it meant trying to cheat history and living fans of the mighty contest they lined his pockets with gold to see. A fighter thinks himself into another frame. Leonard was surely not seeing it this way. A victory is a victory in the eyes of a fighter. Leonard could easily rationalize and shove to the side any questions about his tactics. He has to. He doesn't have time for them. A fighter cannot let doubts creep in. So it was easy for Leonard but hard for some of the republic to swallow. He got what he wanted--a victory in the books, but everyone knows he beat a hollow shell.

This still does not resolve the ring generalship question. Leonard's trickery translated inside the ropes as well, in legitimate ways. He was flat tricky and sneaky, and tried to be. Robinson had a boat load of feints which were instinctive, but outside of this he does not seem to be always looking for an opportunity to trick his opponent and pull something sneaky. He was too busy getting the job done. The great era of show boating was still ahead.

[Schmerzen]

robinson wouldnt lose to duran at 147

[The Old LefHook]

I figure Robinson would beat Duran up pretty good at welterweight. He can land too well before Duran's firepower ever gets in range. Duran would make a fight of it, though, and would have his moments. A 9-6 or 10-5 type of decision. There is still a reasonable chance the greatest combination puncher of all time will KO Duran, who possessed a chin of stone as well. Probably not. I believe Hearns caught Duran lucky. I also suspect he could be the only fighter Duran ever had any significant fear of. From something I read I gained the impression that Duran was intimidated by Hearns, which is almost counter-intuitive to us with all our conditioning on Duran's personality.

There is a section here somewhere I ran into with boxing books for free download. I think it was from a biography of Duran I came across this way that I read some stuff that swayed me. Just don't remember exactly what it was, or where it was.

[Joe Beamish]

Ray Leonard 5' 10" 147lbs.
best welter opponents;
................times fought..........
Wilfred Benitez 1
Roberto Duran 2
Tommy Hearns 1


Sugar Ray Robinson 5' 11" 147lbs.

Sammy Agnott 3
Marty Servo 2
Fritzie Zivic 2
Maxie Berger
Kid Gavilan 2
Ralph Zanelli
Jose Basora
Henry "Hank" Armstrong

These are welterweight bouts only. Featuring champions and top ten contenders as opponents.
Leonard fought 40 times as a pro, with 31 bouts as a welter.
Sugar Ray had around 62 of his 200 bouts at welter with his only loss to the Middleweight Champion of the World by decision.
LaMotta 160.5........Sugar Ray 144.5, I can guarantee LaMotta hit the ring at 175lbs.

When you add in the Middleweight bouts as far as quality it is filled with top champs and contenders.
The 40's through the 50's was a strong welter era, ever bit as good as Leonard/Hearns/Benitez/Duran in fact there were more contenders in the top fifteen that were better than the top fifteen in the later era.
Over all quality of opponents that each man faced is overwhelmingly in Sugar Ray Robinsons favor.
He was stopped once in extreme heat with the ref being replaced at the end of the 10th
because of exhaustion. Ringside fans were feinting throughout the bout. Sugarman retired in his corner in the 13th round while way ahead on points with the Light Heavy Champion Joey Maxim.


If you ask Leonard who is the very best boxer/puncher ever he will tell you what Joe Louis and Ali knew..Sugar Ray Robinson!!

and it's not even close!

Ray

Apples to oranges. Robinson's opponents didn't have the speed of a Leonard, or the "slickness" (to use the much maligned term around here) of a Benitez or Hearns.

And while I don't blame Robinson for doing so, he ducked the Murderer's Row fighters that might have contained the level of talent that Leonard faced and defeated.

Armstrong was waaay past prime of course.

That said, it's still a tough call, and I think a Leonard/Robinson fight goes to a close decision either way -- both guys could basically do it all.

[joeandthebums]

And while I don't blame Robinson for doing so, he ducked the Murderer's Row fighters that might have contained the level of talent that Leonard faced and defeated.

Interested to hear your take on who of the murderer's row he ducked and when.

[The Old LefHook]

When was there any outcry for Robinson to fight any murderer's row member? I do not know about it. Was some member of murderer's row a top contender who got ducked during his reign? Time to speak out with some facts instead of repeating old rumors and innuendos. Was there an outcry?

[Hawkins]

When was there any outcry for Robinson to fight any murderer's row member? I do not know about it. Was some member of murderser's row a top contender who got ducked during his reign? Time to speak out with some facts instead of repeating old rumors and innuendos. Was there an outcry?

The only thing I have ever read, or heard, mentions Burley but considering he left the welterweight division by the time Ray had started making a mark at the weight renders the claims of 'ducking' a little far fetched. I even think Burley was retired by the time Ray took the championship from LaMotta.

The only way anyone could potentially make the claim that Ray ducked him was there were a couple of serious attempts to make the fight in the mid 40's but Ray priced himself out of the fight. However, being as he was a shrewd and tough negotiator with most opponents makes the claim of purposely avoiding Burley kind of suspect. I've also read that once when they were fighting on the same card Sugar Ray told his manager that he was 'too pretty to fight Burley.' Whether that's true or not is hard to say.

[Ray Corso]

Leonard fought 3 top welters, he stopped Tommy while Tommy was beating him. He fought Wilfred who is NOT an ATG to me.
Duran came up from lightweight because he hated Leonard and that's where the money was, and he beat him. You make it sound like Leonard won!
He return claused Duran much earlier than they we're going to and Duran took the money spot, that's not an excuse for Duran but that is what happened.
As far speed and slickness I'll take power & guts, maybe you never heard of the Original Hawk! Kid Gavilan was an ATG and Robinson fought him twice. Robinson said he caught the Kid several times with shots that stopped other but the Kid took them.
I can give my opinion that Leonard and Hearns don't take big power like Robinson and Gavilan could.

" both guys could basically do it all"................no they couldn't!

Leonard couldn't punch with power in both hands like Sugarman did! Robinson didn't wait for the Middleweight Champ to get old, he fought the Middleweight King as a Welter giving away plenty of weight. He lost a tough fight to LaMotta but "two weeks later" he won a clear cut decision. He fought him 3 more times never losing again. They fought in their primes.
I knew Leonard when he was an amateur J.O. also as an open class fighter and he trained at my gym for a week before his pro fight in New Haven.
Fighters after 1955 were telivised before that if you didn't fight hard on the "live shows" you wouldn't be used. So moving away and countering all night was going to cut your career short.
Mayweather, Hopkins and Benitez would be booed out the auditoriums back on the live show only days!

When Ray Leonard tells everyone that the Sugarman was the best and Ali said it and every trainer today says why not accept the facts? Then again being a Beamish doesn't mean your really that bright!

Ray