Marciano: alternate legacy

[Greatest1942]

I don't have anything against him, I never even knew him. I just know that watching his films he was a scrappy slugger with a good chin. If Tex Cobb had a bigger punch we might be here arguing his greatness. He'd take a few to get his shot in just like Rocky. Although Cobb never had his nose nearly torn from his face............Rockin'

Rockin I respect you but this highly controversial statement. I don't know where to start, if you were someone else my response will be a bit terse.

But as for Cobb the day Tex could evade punches liek Rocky he would have been a genius. Rocky avoided punches, otherwise guys like Moore or even the old Charles would have blown him away.

Now you are a pro and all that but I will take Charles word about Rocky's defense over yours. "Rocky fools you, he does not take as much punishment as it seems.He looks easy to hit inside but he isn't"...that man had a better view. So if I have to absolutely take a boxers opinion, I will take this.

However you might have missed some of these attributes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b0yHvw-vW0

Watch the above video and go and watch a Tex Cobb video and let me know if Tex had remotely the skills of Rocky. Watch how he slips jabs from Joe lOuis(who was old but still had a great jab, Walcott etc).

Snipes wil be caught by Rocky atleast five times in a 15 rounder, even Ali was caught by George Chuvalo. I have never seen anything in Snipes to suggest he will endure a barrage from Rocky...from Holmes yea, who never had Rock's power.

And you never go undefeated in boxing without getting tested. Have a good day.

[TheGreatA]

When you hear Marciano talk about boxing it's obvious that the man had a lot of knowledge about the sport. He was trained by one of the best in Charley Goldman after all who recognized his raw talent early on (apparently by looking sluggish in sparring until flattening his opponent with a single punch). Part of the reason why he might appear more crude than some of the other heavyweight champions is that he was a late starter who took up boxing in his 20's.

Goldman instilled in him the knowledge of all the techniques that were needed to become a champion and while he did not necessarily have the co-ordination to pull of them all, he would instead use his experience by taking advantage of his awkwardness and making the fight extremely difficult and uncomfortable for his opponents. Sure he did not utilize a double jab or subtle footwork, but he did know how to prevent his opponent from using these techniques effectively. Once he dragged you into a war, he always got the better of it.

"The Rock didn't know too much about the boxing book, but it wasn't a book he hit me with. It was a whole library of bone crushers."
-Joe Louis

[Greatest1942]

Me and Kid are mostly on the same page. Here we are however it seems on a different one.

Kid the LaStraza fight could have dented some of the lustre of Rocky's 49-0. But who's say then Rocky would not have fought LaStraza 3 more times to make it 2-1 in the series or retired with 50-1 or 51-1. These are all conjectures.

If Ali lost the series to Norton 2-1( the judges basically screwed Norton), lost to Young and drew with Shavers his career will look not as good.

What if Dempsey fought Willis and got KO'd in three rounds...it would make him look bad. There is hardly a champion, Louis, Ali,Rock, Holmes included who does not have a controversial winin their resume which helped them to preserve teh title.

Even if Rocky lost, I think many would have lost the arguement , "undefeated so untested". Because say what you will of Walcott or Charles, on video they tested Rocky to the core. OS ultimately he would be ranked where he is today. 6 times title defence a good top 10 victim (better than George Foreman's or Larry Holmes IMO, believe it or not).

I don't see he him being severely crippled.

[Greatest1942]

When you hear Marciano talk about boxing it's obvious that the man had a lot of knowledge about the sport. He was trained by one of the best in Charley Goldman after all who recognized his raw talent early on (apparently by looking sluggish in sparring until flattening his opponent with a single punch). Part of the reason why he might appear more crude than some of the other heavyweight champions is that he was a late starter who took up boxing in his 20's.

Goldman instilled in him the knowledge of all the techniques that were needed to become a champion and while he did not necessarily have the co-ordination to pull of them all, he would instead use his experience by taking advantage of his awkwardness and making the fight extremely difficult and uncomfortable for his opponents. Sure he did not utilize a double jab or subtle footwork, but he did know how to prevent his opponent from using these techniques effectively. Once he dragged you into a war, he always got the better of it.

"The Rock didn't know too much about the boxing book, but it wasn't a book he hit me with. It was a whole library of bone crushers."
-Joe Louis

Good post.

Rocky was brilliant in making the other guy fight his fight. Archie Moore confessed "He doesn't let you fight your fight".

Freddie Brown put it best " It's not like football. Rocky never gives you the ball".

As for Goldman working on Rocky's defense, to give him the subtle skills required. Nothing could be more true.

Lets hear from the man himself"Rocky rolls under punches and he weaves under punches...He protects his belly by blocking punches with his elbows".

Simple yet effective, this is a past 1953 Rocky though. Goldman made some subtle changes to sacrifice some power to give Rocky a good defense.

Keane Simmons once said "When you look at him from outside the ring he seems easy to hit, but if you are in the ring with him you will find it isn't the case."

[McGoorty]

Although I am inclined to agree you can "learn boxing" or "know boxing" and pro's will obviously "know" the game.

It's another reason why I don't understand anyone who learns about boxing history and hasn't boxed before.

Ummm how on earth would I know if Rockin' has ever boxed before, all I saw was him saying Marciano was a nobody,.... I bet no matter how good a boxer he may be... I bet he'd pale at the thought of facing Marciano for real. Anyway, my post was in response to one post. Boxers all have their own theories about boxing but as Tyson say's about theories being punched out of people. So I ask again,.. how would I know what Rockin' does for an opinion. I think some boxers are good historians,, but Dan is right about many of them being very poor judges too.

[McGoorty]

Renaldo Snipes gave Larry Holmes all that he could handle when he challenged for his title. I remember watching this fight live on the networks back in the day.

Snipes had his jab in Larrys face all night, he is the man who came closest to defeating Holmes back then and did it with an educated jab, if he had more power he may have taken Holmes out.

Now put short statured Rocky Marciano against Snipes and that jab and the Rock would definately have a hard time reaching him and Snipes would catch the Rock coming in with his wide shots.

I know the fight and I know it's history. I'm just not sold on Marciano being all that great when he beat big names that were either on the back side of the hill or fighting out of their weight class. Besides the big names Lastarza is the only quality opponent that Rocky beat.

Just because I don't agree with common opinion does not mean that I don't know what I am talking about. I would rate Ali, Louis, Fraizier, Johnson, Tyson at his peak and others above Rocky as an all-time great.

Head to head I think that Renaldo Snipes would have beaten Rockys face to a swollen pulp if they ever met. Was Rocky a technical fighter, no. Was Rocky a highly skilled fighter, no. Did Rocky take alot of shots to get his shots off, yes. Was Rocky basically a brawler with little defense, a good chin and a big punch, yes he was. That does not sound like the greatest of all time, just my opinion.............Rockin'

That's all fine but I objected to the way you went about that earlier post,.. but Rocky seems to me to be the greatest brawler of them all, this post was much better put, we all have a right to our opinions, me because I study them for years,,,,, Rocky was the best HW in the world,,, Tex Cobb may have similarities, but there is no comparison,... Rocky may look ugly at times but 42 KO's from 49 proves that no HW in history was as effective as a head first slugger, but many punches that came Rocky's way are just glancing off him.. these fighters back then were very, very tough. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think I prefer substance over style anyday, I've seen hundreds of fights where a slick boxer made someone look silly all night then WHAM,.. the brown Bomber lowers the boom on Conn (for instance),,, and all that great work means nothing........... in Disneyland.

[McGoorty]

Rockin I respect you but this highly controversial statement. I don't know where to start, if you were someone else my response will be a bit terse.

But as for Cobb the day Tex could evade punches liek Rocky he would have been a genius. Rocky avoided punches, otherwise guys like Moore or even the old Charles would have blown him away.

Now you are a pro and all that but I will take Charles word about Rocky's defense over yours. "Rocky fools you, he does not take as much punishment as it seems.He looks easy to hit inside but he isn't"...that man had a better view. So if I have to absolutely take a boxers opinion, I will take this.

However you might have missed some of these attributes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b0yHvw-vW0

Watch the above video and go and watch a Tex Cobb video and let me know if Tex had remotely the skills of Rocky. Watch how he slips jabs from Joe lOuis(who was old but still had a great jab, Walcott etc).

Snipes wil be caught by Rocky atleast five times in a 15 rounder, even Ali was caught by George Chuvalo. I have never seen anything in Snipes to suggest he will endure a barrage from Rocky...from Holmes yea, who never had Rock's power.

And you never go undefeated in boxing without getting tested. Have a good day.

You know, it seems to me that apart from one sticky subject,..... we are in agreement on virtually everything else, this post of yours is a perfect example, I have never hidden my admiration for Rocky and I just cannot understand why he's not admired by everyone. I look forward to more.

[McGoorty]

When you hear Marciano talk about boxing it's obvious that the man had a lot of knowledge about the sport. He was trained by one of the best in Charley Goldman after all who recognized his raw talent early on (apparently by looking sluggish in sparring until flattening his opponent with a single punch). Part of the reason why he might appear more crude than some of the other heavyweight champions is that he was a late starter who took up boxing in his 20's.

Goldman instilled in him the knowledge of all the techniques that were needed to become a champion and while he did not necessarily have the co-ordination to pull of them all, he would instead use his experience by taking advantage of his awkwardness and making the fight extremely difficult and uncomfortable for his opponents. Sure he did not utilize a double jab or subtle footwork, but he did know how to prevent his opponent from using these techniques effectively. Once he dragged you into a war, he always got the better of it.

"The Rock didn't know too much about the boxing book, but it wasn't a book he hit me with. It was a whole library of bone crushers."
-Joe Louis

All in all, for a bloke who wanted nothing more than to play baseball in the major leagues, Marciano became a hell of a fighter.

[McGoorty]

Good post.

Rocky was brilliant in making the other guy fight his fight. Archie Moore confessed "He doesn't let you fight your fight".

Freddie Brown put it best " It's not like football. Rocky never gives you the ball".

As for Goldman working on Rocky's defense, to give him the subtle skills required. Nothing could be more true.

Lets hear from the man himself"Rocky rolls under punches and he weaves under punches...He protects his belly by blocking punches with his elbows".

Simple yet effective, this is a past 1953 Rocky though. Goldman made some subtle changes to sacrifice some power to give Rocky a good defense.

Keane Simmons once said "When you look at him from outside the ring he seems easy to hit, but if you are in the ring with him you will find it isn't the case."

This quote is one of the all-time great boxing quotes.... thanks for that tid-bit...

Freddie Brown put it best " It's not like football. Rocky never gives you the ball".

[Greatest1942]

All in all, for a bloke who wanted nothing more than to play baseball in the major leagues, Marciano became a hell of a fighter.

He became one of the best of all time. Period.

As for him short and crude, trust me before Bolt came along most so called trainers would have scoffed at man of his figure trying to make a name in 100M dash.

We all know what happened next. Rocky proved the same in boxing.