5 most important figures in the history of boxing

[wmute]

1. Jack Broughton 1740's..... Where would boxing be without the first great boxing champion..... He was the first fighter with the reputation and popularity to have the power and right to Author the very first formulated rules for boxing...... A common misconception is that we owe the use of gloves to the Marquis of Queensbury,...... it was Broughton 270 years ago who introduced gloves for sparring and for amatuers..... where would we be indeed........................ It was Broughton who first brought in most of the basics of boxing and the first school (widely available as it spread) to teach those ideas he had all but invented. Apart from the original champ (Figg, who boxed as if he was weilding a sword)...... It was Broughton who was the very FIRST Boxer to introduce the word science,,,,,, Jack was indeed a scientific boxer,... keeping in mind the very limited medical knowledge of the "Gin Age".---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Broughton method fighters ruled the pugilistic world for at least 3 decades before the NEXT MAN WE NEEDED to advance the sport was the great and absolutely the very first true pound for pound champion, a junior Middleweight by our standards...... He is a top contender for this list too as this man advanced the boxing game by light years,,,,, you can still read his training manual to this day (via my thread)......... He is my #2.... Daniel MENDOZA,---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mendoza was a completely revolutionary boxer, after he came along the Broughton method was obsolete. Daniel Mendoza is without doubt the greatest fighter of the entire 18th century, he was a marvel of the sport. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Most of the basic principles of Mendoza still exist today, except of course for the grappling and throwing that was a significant feature of the time........ As far as I can tell, All of his fights he had, he was the shorter man and always gave many pounds away. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mendoza's favourite technique was a blow that is as illegal as it is pointless today, because of the use of gloves. This blow was devastating, but took a great deal of mastery for it to be of any use. In those days it was called the Chopping blow, in reality a backfist which struck with the first two knuckles, Mendoza would parry a blow and then strike immediately with the parrying hand, and he say's that he cuts a man every time he lands, Mendoza adds that when he hits the right spot above the bridge of the nose, the nose will split from top to bottom....... Fight over, even then such a wound means the victim is done for.After Mendoza became the champion,... the "chopping blow", became known as "The Mendoza".--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There were two basic schools by the time Philadelphia Jack O' Brien was fighting. The Classical style (English and new English)..... and The American, or as O' Brien calls it the "Crouchers" ........ Jack proudly states that he is purely classical................. Another word for the classical style could justifiably be called The Mendoza school.... By the late 1800's... most boxing manuals were still basically re-cycling the theories from Mendoza's 1788 manual. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There had to be a major revolution to happen for any marked changes to make the sport evolve,........ Like everything else as the 19th century got a roll on the major revolutions happened on the other side of the Atlantic............ It was not the big cities of the East coast where the revolution and evolution of boxing took it's next great leap. The honour for this is what an Aussie would call the "Outback", "Never Never" or simply "The Bush"...... of course it was frontier USA where most changes came.... Lawlessness is a legendary notion we have of the Wild West. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anybody who has an inkling of Charles Darwin knows that the one thing for species to evolve into something very different needs a large degree of isolation for it to happen.......... well before the Railroads had swallowed up a continent...... communications and distances were slow and vast. In this setting, far from the beaten path, and even further from a Classical Boxing master who can teach even the most rudimentary Classical techniques and attitudes, brought a re-invention and initially a few steps back in time. The crouchers, and brawlers who bashed each other for a dime had no time for all that posh stuff........... Think a primitive Bat Nelson........ .---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Who is the American most responsible for perfecting this style to the point where it has reached it's perfection........ In my mind there are three names who cane say "ME",......... The first important world class American fighter is of course TOM HEENAN.......................... 2nd and the one who most think of is the greatest and most influential fighter of the second half...... John L. Sullivan..... We owe the success of Marquis of Queensbury rules to Sullivan...... It was his popularity which made the establishment finally accept that Gloved fighting was an actual sport....... It had always been regarded as for novices and amatuers..... Sullivan refused to fight bare-knuckle, he only ever had 4 bare-knuckle fights. He is so famous that I need say any more for now. ---------- the other name we must acknowledge is the Great Jack "Non-Pariel" Dempsey. -- Although Sullivan was a revelation in his ability,...... Dempsey was probably the greatest scientific fighter ever seen until then..... Not only did he have great ability in the "Classical style"...... he, being an American after all, fused the American style along with it........ there is something terribly modern about much of the great "Non-Pariel".... As everybody knows Non-Pariel means incomparable....... He must have been awesome. I will think about post 1890 soon, but that's just a quick line or two to tide you over.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to McGoorty again.

Helluva post

[McGoorty]

Well McGoorty you've gone and made everyone else look bad.

Thanks for that!

I'm surprised no-one has so much as mentioned Jack "where the white women at" Johnson. He won't be taking a top spot, but he must be up there?

Thank you, you're welcome,.... I read huge statements sometimes that I come to think, deep down, that although there is much truth in what is said about "The first Modern fighter",..... He has several names,... "Non Pariel", Sullivan, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Gans, Leonard, Tunney, Louis, Robinson..... but Corbett's is usually the one most talk about. ------------------------------ Corbett was a real character, not to the extent that Erroll Flynn portrayed him,..... no one was larger than life than Erroll was........... But Flynn was fairly right in the way he played Corbett as a bit of a rogue who thought very highly of himself.......... He was not just a great exponent of the Classical school, but a great self-promoter as well......... I think it's the way Corbett adapted the classical style to one used with gloves..... gone was the old "Chopping Blow or The Mendoza"....... Many years later were still trying it, notably George Chip, but with gloves on the blow became obsolete,.... no more splitting noses in half..... with bare knuckles and the know how, the raking of the big knuckle was a match winner,...... Corbett saw this, but there was some of the American style, but of course he did away with any sort of crouch. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There are other very important things that made up Corbett into the champion he became,.... He was a born athlete, he had super fast reflexes, he was tall, so the Classical style was perfectly suited to his build......... His greatest asset was his straight left jab, which angled upwards because he liked to have his hands fairly low,... two fighters who adopted this type of left were Joe Jeanette and our buddy Ali........ We are now dominated by many fighters today who are Ali>>> read Canzoneri>>>> read Corbett,.. but of course without Non Pariel or Sullivan, or Mendoza,.... and of course the Great-Grandfather of the Scientific boxing school........... Gentleman and bartenders... take off your hat's and Dips Yer Lid to The Right Honourable Jack Broughton Esquire. --------------------------------------- And thanks again for the kind words mate, I needed a lift.

[Hitman Hodgson]

Jack Johnson?

[McGoorty]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to McGoorty again.

Helluva post

Thanks,.... I forgot to mention that I've been reading those very early training manuals, and some things struck me about "Ye Olden Fighters of yesteryears Bare knuckle days",...--------------- Firstly, because the hands are the life blood of a fighters effectiveness,.. ie they can and do break,..... I realised the biggest difference from then and now. We have all been taught the maxim that the holy grail is the point of the chin, we have heard it a million times,,,..... we are also smart enough to realize that punches to the body are still important. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BUT, although the Chin was an important target right back to James Figg in 1717 (is it just me, or does that seem to be a very long time ago ?)............. The Fighters of Mendoza's time taught that the #1 target in boxing is the pit of the stomach..... called "The Mark"......... most knockouts came from that shot. I thinks to meself I say's......... Gee I saw Mosley KO Taylor with a body shot, but no, that shot was just under the ribs (score 1. for body-punching)...... Then I recall reading about the 1st Zale V Graziano fight where Tony dropped Rocky for the full 10 count with a perfect shot to the "Mark"......... but they are very rare, you see them occasionally in fights with novices over 4, but man not very much.----------------------------------------------- It's not untill we go back behind the 20's where we read about many fights ending with the blow to the mark.... some very stellar names did it,,.... but the one gone into legend was Ruby Bobs shot on Corbett,... I have read that Bob hit Jim with a solar-plexus punch.... but that is slightly wrong, it was "Hit 'im in the SLATS Bob !!!!,.... and that's exactly where Bob hit him, "The Slats",...... meaning the washboard abs of Jimbo. -- It's all in Bob's book, "Physical Culture and Self Defence". ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------- So now i reach the point I'm trying to make,........ The very-old-timers had no gloves, The old-timers wore gloves that were 6 ounces at maximum...... and Moderns have gotten used to bigger gloves....... Bare Knuckles present a far smaller condensed point of impact, a punch delivered to the Mark or the pit of the stomach does far more internal damage than a 10 ounce glove could ever do...... and with a 4 or 6 ounce glove, maybe 70 per cent as damaging as a bare fist, so still capable of hitting a man so he can't walk properly for well over a week. It is pure fact that a fighter with all the skills and is a master of feinting to the chin but switching for the hardest blow to the pit of the stomach when the poor sod isn't expecting it,....... another way to put it, he is not tensing all his stomach muscles to hit hard muscle (if the blow is very hard and accurate he will probably be finished anyway),,,,,,, so with the stomach relaxed the shot to the mark sinks in deep,..... bursting softer tissue deep inside and well you all probably can get your heads around what that would do for your constitution. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When people talk about evolution of boxing technique, many are missing the true fact. The fundamentals of boxing are the same now as they were when they were in Broughton's day....... In my opinion what separates era's, is not "we're smarter than our dad's, and we are just soooooo much more sophisticated than granddad",.. sort of crud. ----------- the two major factors are - #1,...... The rules of the sport..... first there was Broughton's rules........ any breaking of any of those rules ended with victory awarded to your opponent............ The fighters of that era perfected boxing to the nth degree........ Those guys were perfect fighters for those conditions,,,,, a fighter from any future era would simply just get themselves killed if they fought one of those blokes under those rules (remember, it was legal to "Suplex" an opponent head first onto the boards,..... ummm, end of fight),.....-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Remember this fact. Just as Johnny Dundee could not fight Mendoza during the interim period between Broughton and LPR Rules,..... Mendoza, although a master of the fundamentals, would be all at sea without his bare knuckle "nose-splitter" or his ball-hammer like belly piercer, or his double-buttock spear tackle throw...... well he'd have massive trouble with Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, oh boy, how he'd hate those 6 ounce gloves (I had to replace Dundee, a FW,...... too small for the barrel chested Mendoza, who was a Jr MW.... but was never heavier than MW)........ There are many changes by then,.... it didn't ever just suddenly change, a slight rule change here a rule change there over decades is how it happens,.... you need a Rennaisance before you can have an Enlightenment, which you must have before English and Scots get the notion of freedom and fight a civil war to begin democracy, which you need before you get a science driven Agricultural Revolution............ the scholars amongst you will know that the Industrial Revolution was not possible without the Agricultural and manufacturing industries combining their common sense into building the windmills where the Industrial thing got it's technology from........ it all intertwines. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ History works the same way as history of any sport, Painting and sculpture, the history of Science........ History is history...... Boxing is not and cannot be any different. ------- Think for a second of how social changes in attitudes may affect new rules or rule changes in boxing (therefore giving a new direction as clever men learn to compensate). Very early on, boxing is popular with all classes and fighters are regaled by nobility who bet huge sums on their fights (the same thing was true for cricket at that time as well,... big money)....... the top fighters became household names. --------------------------------------------------- Then the puritan streak took hold, and suddenly the upper class say "I say old chap",.... and now the boxers are looked down upon by the righteous, and are often hunted as criminals, the Churches fuel this from the pulpits. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It does not take too much of a leap to see in your minds eye that that attitude from the higher echelons may also result an an equal and opposite reaction from the fighters who are now looking over their shoulders....... What does the fighter himself think ???... could there be some increased resentment building up.......... I can easily imagine an "Us Against Them" Mentality among many...... desperate men can also become hardened and rougher.......... There certainly seems to be a big shift in the mid 1800's to a far more rough-house style of fighting....... And I have reason to believe that the rules were far less observed,.... certainly than the 1760's where the below the belt rule was strictly observed,,,,,,,,, there was so much emphasis in Mendoza's day on always doing everything in a manly fashion, to hit a man in the codgers was so not-manly that you were regarded as some kind of foreigner. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I talked about the wild west...... Before Heenan, the only American boxers with any semblance of science were in the largest eastern-board cities....... west of "Old Man River",......... prizefights were not far removed from the saloon where the fight was probably agreed upon, and with bets laid and the bout began 10 minutes later (oh, I do go on a bit)....... that's the cauldron from which emerged the famous John L., who as you all know, could lick any man in the house. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am not going to keep going through all the eras, I hope I got my point across.. ------------------ Take away the gloves we use now, put on bigger ones, and introduce a new format with 45 X 1 minute rounds............... And styles would have to adapt again......... or forget all that and just stop referee's from pulling fighters apart the moment a single arm is held by a man wanting to wanting to do a spot of infighting and mauling....... just enforce that and that one adjustment would make boxing a lot better, and restore the balance of power between the boxer and the slugger,.... or as Jack O'Brien say's the classical fighter and the croucher. ------------------------------------------------------------- I think that is why boxing in 1950 was filled with so many titanic battles,...... and so forth.... take one thing out or put one thing in and it changes many things.

[McGoorty]

Jack Johnson?

Yes, jack made a big mark...... he kicked the door in that Dixon and Gans had pried open with a crowbar and two left hooks and two right crosses.

[Barn]

lmfao I was about to say Jack Johnson.

Don't forget John L or George Dixon.

[wmute]

Thanks,.... I forgot to mention that I've been reading those very early training manuals, and some things struck me about "Ye Olden Fighters of yesteryears Bare knuckle days",...--------------- Firstly, because the hands are the life blood of a fighters effectiveness,.. ie they can and do break,..... I realised the biggest difference from then and now. We have all been taught the maxim that the holy grail is the point of the chin, we have heard it a million times,,,..... we are also smart enough to realize that punches to the body are still important. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BUT, although the Chin was an important target right back to James Figg in 1717 (is it just me, or does that seem to be a very long time ago ?)............. The Fighters of Mendoza's time taught that the #1 target in boxing is the pit of the stomach..... called "The Mark"......... most knockouts came from that shot. I thinks to meself I say's......... Gee I saw Mosley KO Taylor with a body shot, but no, that shot was just under the ribs (score 1. for body-punching)...... Then I recall reading about the 1st Zale V Graziano fight where Tony dropped Rocky for the full 10 count with a perfect shot to the "Mark"......... but they are very rare, you see them occasionally in fights with novices over 4, but man not very much.----------------------------------------------- It's not untill we go back behind the 20's where we read about many fights ending with the blow to the mark.... some very stellar names did it,,.... but the one gone into legend was Ruby Bobs shot on Corbett,... I have read that Bob hit Jim with a solar-plexus punch.... but that is slightly wrong, it was "Hit 'im in the SLATS Bob !!!!,.... and that's exactly where Bob hit him, "The Slats",...... meaning the washboard abs of Jimbo. -- It's all in Bob's book, "Physical Culture and Self Defence". ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------- So now i reach the point I'm trying to make,........ The very-old-timers had no gloves, The old-timers wore gloves that were 6 ounces at maximum...... and Moderns have gotten used to bigger gloves....... Bare Knuckles present a far smaller condensed point of impact, a punch delivered to the Mark or the pit of the stomach does far more internal damage than a 10 ounce glove could ever do...... and with a 4 or 6 ounce glove, maybe 70 per cent as damaging as a bare fist, so still capable of hitting a man so he can't walk properly for well over a week. It is pure fact that a fighter with all the skills and is a master of feinting to the chin but switching for the hardest blow to the pit of the stomach when the poor sod isn't expecting it,....... another way to put it, he is not tensing all his stomach muscles to hit hard muscle (if the blow is very hard and accurate he will probably be finished anyway),,,,,,, so with the stomach relaxed the shot to the mark sinks in deep,..... bursting softer tissue deep inside and well you all probably can get your heads around what that would do for your constitution. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When people talk about evolution of boxing technique, many are missing the true fact. The fundamentals of boxing are the same now as they were when they were in Broughton's day....... In my opinion what separates era's, is not "we're smarter than our dad's, and we are just soooooo much more sophisticated than granddad",.. sort of crud. ----------- the two major factors are - #1,...... The rules of the sport..... first there was Broughton's rules........ any breaking of any of those rules ended with victory awarded to your opponent............ The fighters of that era perfected boxing to the nth degree........ Those guys were perfect fighters for those conditions,,,,, a fighter from any future era would simply just get themselves killed if they fought one of those blokes under those rules (remember, it was legal to "Suplex" an opponent head first onto the boards,..... ummm, end of fight),.....-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Remember this fact. Just as Johnny Dundee could not fight Mendoza during the interim period between Broughton and LPR Rules,..... Mendoza, although a master of the fundamentals, would be all at sea without his bare knuckle "nose-splitter" or his ball-hammer like belly piercer, or his double-buttock spear tackle throw...... well he'd have massive trouble with Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, oh boy, how he'd hate those 6 ounce gloves (I had to replace Dundee, a FW,...... too small for the barrel chested Mendoza, who was a Jr MW.... but was never heavier than MW)........ There are many changes by then,.... it didn't ever just suddenly change, a slight rule change here a rule change there over decades is how it happens,.... you need a Rennaisance before you can have an Enlightenment, which you must have before English and Scots get the notion of freedom and fight a civil war to begin democracy, which you need before you get a science driven Agricultural Revolution............ the scholars amongst you will know that the Industrial Revolution was not possible without the Agricultural and manufacturing industries combining their common sense into building the windmills where the Industrial thing got it's technology from........ it all intertwines. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ History works the same way as history of any sport, Painting and sculpture, the history of Science........ History is history...... Boxing is not and cannot be any different. ------- Think for a second of how social changes in attitudes may affect new rules or rule changes in boxing (therefore giving a new direction as clever men learn to compensate). Very early on, boxing is popular with all classes and fighters are regaled by nobility who bet huge sums on their fights (the same thing was true for cricket at that time as well,... big money)....... the top fighters became household names. --------------------------------------------------- Then the puritan streak took hold, and suddenly the upper class say "I say old chap",.... and now the boxers are looked down upon by the righteous, and are often hunted as criminals, the Churches fuel this from the pulpits. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It does not take too much of a leap to see in your minds eye that that attitude from the higher echelons may also result an an equal and opposite reaction from the fighters who are now looking over their shoulders....... What does the fighter himself think ???... could there be some increased resentment building up.......... I can easily imagine an "Us Against Them" Mentality among many...... desperate men can also become hardened and rougher.......... There certainly seems to be a big shift in the mid 1800's to a far more rough-house style of fighting....... And I have reason to believe that the rules were far less observed,.... certainly than the 1760's where the below the belt rule was strictly observed,,,,,,,,, there was so much emphasis in Mendoza's day on always doing everything in a manly fashion, to hit a man in the codgers was so not-manly that you were regarded as some kind of foreigner. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I talked about the wild west...... Before Heenan, the only American boxers with any semblance of science were in the largest eastern-board cities....... west of "Old Man River",......... prizefights were not far removed from the saloon where the fight was probably agreed upon, and with bets laid and the bout began 10 minutes later (oh, I do go on a bit)....... that's the cauldron from which emerged the famous John L., who as you all know, could lick any man in the house. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am not going to keep going through all the eras, I hope I got my point across.. ------------------ Take away the gloves we use now, put on bigger ones, and introduce a new format with 45 X 1 minute rounds............... And styles would have to adapt again......... or forget all that and just stop referee's from pulling fighters apart the moment a single arm is held by a man wanting to wanting to do a spot of infighting and mauling....... just enforce that and that one adjustment would make boxing a lot better, and restore the balance of power between the boxer and the slugger,.... or as Jack O'Brien say's the classical fighter and the croucher. ------------------------------------------------------------- I think that is why boxing in 1950 was filled with so many titanic battles,...... and so forth.... take one thing out or put one thing in and it changes many things.

I wonder if the more lax attitude towards rule prevailing in the 18th century was due to the welathy not betting on fights anymore, and hence only smaller amounts of money were played by each individual and this led to less less pressure on referees and fighter to keep it clean

[GJC]

Your opinions please. Which 5 people have had the greatest impact on the advancement of boxing. All aspects of the game included.


Some early suggestions, obviously all are up for debate.

1. Marquess of Queensbury.

Founded modern boxing, invented the current rules.

2. Jim Corbett

Revolutionised the technical aspects of boxing, first 'intelligent' fighter.

3. Tex Rickard

First promoter to create 'stars' of boxers.

4. Muhammad Ali

The icon of boxing, carried its popularity through to the modern era.

5. Julio Cesar Chavez

Made boxing a national fixation in Mexico, the rest is history. (Up for debate of course, just throwing some ideas out)

Corbett always gave a lot of credit to Jem Mace whom McG might want to fill in some gaps on, as he pushed the sweet science along a fair bit down under?

[McGoorty]

Corbett always gave a lot of credit to Jem Mace whom McG might want to fill in some gaps on, as he pushed the sweet science along a fair bit down under?

Jem Mace was the greatest fighter between Cribb and Sullivan, you are spot on about Australia there. Mace is certainly far more of a contender for a list like this if it was specifically for Australia only. His importance to Australian boxing cannot be under-estimated. While in Australian he met a young tough named Larry Foley. --------------------------------------- Larry Foley became Mace's best pupil downunder, As far as I can tell Foley had a remarkable career as a bare-knuckle fighter, details are hard to trace. As far as I can find out, Larry Foley had something in the vicinity of 30 bouts, ---------------- He was undefeated, and had many knockouts, for anyone slightly familiar with LPRR you would know a record like that is almost unheard of, regardless of who he fought. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can trace a lineage of great fighters who owe at least 9 10th's of their skills via Mace through Foley, we could call it the Mace method, it was based on using some of the classical style but with the all-action style we saw in Fenech. It is probably easier to do it in this manner ;-- Mace >> Foley >> Fitzsimmons & Jackson >> Dave Smith >> Les Darcy & Tommy Uren & Mick King & Jock Keyes >>> Ambrose Palmer (very important figure here, after a stellar career as a fighter, Ambrose became our greatest trainer between Foley and Johnny Lewis,.... Palmer trained well over 40 Australian Champions at least),.>>>> By the 40's Australian boxing had regained much of it's glory days of Darcy,..... the fan downunder was by now a total BOX-Tard, and there were so many terrific fighters, basically frozen out of any world title shots that kept all the talent at home, and instead of withering it hit another golden age, almost every bout was a war. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You have inspired me to try a list of the EIGHT most important and influential figures in Australian Boxing history,....I'll start with Mace - The Grandfather of Australian Boxing. ----------------------------------------------------------- #1. Jem Mace, for reasons outlined above. #2. Larry Foley - the Father of Australian Boxing, and ditto above. #3. Bob Fitzsimmons, well should I even need to explain ??. #4. Hugh D. McIntosh, Our greatest ever Promoter and one of the world's. He started the boom which culminated with Darcy. The only explanation needed but is just two surnames, Johnson and Burns, or even just the year, THE watershed year for our boxing History. #5. Les Darcy,.... a lay down misere for every reason. #6. Ambrose Palmer, It was as a trainer that makes him so important,....... Virtually every great fighter from the 30's has either direct or in-direct knowledge that Palmer had passed on, he is the glue, so to speak. #7. This is a toss up between Jimmy Carruthers or Lionel Rose, they both had a similar effect, they re-ignited the fans back into rabid fanatics,.... they were both equally important in my view. Carruthers was the first person since Darcy to win a world title or at least be touted as the best in the world. #8. In the early eighties, boxing was ready for the last rites, then Lester Ellis raised ONE eyebrow, but then Jeff Fenech burst on the scene, Fenech was the saviour of Australian boxing,... it was also his success that helped put Johnny Lewis into the world class as a trainer, so 2 points for Jeff....... lewis then had enough reputation to bring Kostya Tszyu here,... 3 points for Jeff and of course Kostya probably had more Aussie fans than Jeff..... Kostya is indispensable.... without him to keep the ball rolling, the game would have been back on it's knees after Jeff was shot. 4 points,.. And Kostya got the world to take another look at downunder as a pool for potential talent, and kept the door open for the likes of Katsides, Darchinyan and Daniel Geale,,, not to mention Robbie Peden,... But I would never do that... Robbie Peden, Robbie Peden..... RP.... Robbo,... the Robster, Peedo.... good on ya mate.