Is Greb Greater Than Duran?

[StarshipTrooper]

This can't be a serious question mate. Greb had ace ability far superior to Duran and it shows on his record. Duran would not have lasted two rounds with Tunney.

Lemme guess: Duran ain't white enough for you. Typical.

Poet

[Greatest1942]

Not only that, but it clearly states in no uncertain terms how they thought of this being called any sort of championship match. I guess it shows just how far down boxing has come. Imagine if these same guys, disdainful of an American LHW title fight being called a 'championship match', saw what passes for world title fights these days with unranked fighters, coming off losses, suspensions, at catchweights in divisions neither has fought at or is any kind of contender even?

Anyway, it states 'A rather meagre crowd witnessed the so-called championship encounter' specifically stating that it was clearly not for the world LHW title nor did anyone think it as such.

So, to settle it. Neither Greb nor Tunney ever won the LHW title. It really is as simple as that. They just didn't win it. It's fact. Set in stone. Can't be undone or revised. It just didn't happen.

I provide two articles you pick one quote, before riding on that have you actually seen the number of the crowd vs the crowd number of championship fights of the stone set title..this is laughable..never mind I will "settle it". Giving you sources you understand.

For the above, in bold, so you highlight the meagre crowd...

TUNNEY CAPTURES LEVINSKY'S TITLE; Gains Decision Over Holder of American Light-Heavyweight Crown at Garden. VICTOR BY A WIDE MARGIN Greenwich Village Boxer Has Philadelphia Veteran in Distress in Sixth Round.MADDEN AND FULTON DRAWWest Sider Concedes 35 Poundsto Minnesotan, but Forces Fight

A new American light-heavyweight champion was crowned last night in Madison Square Garden before one of the largest crowds of the season. While a gathering of more than fourteen thousand people looked on Gene Tunney of Greenwich Village, a pugilistic product of the late war, hammered his way to victory over the veteran and venerable...

This is for the meagre crowd...which by the way was still bigger than most of the 'official' crowd.."lack of interest" okay, lets find another:

"LOUGHRAN MAY GIVE GREB A HARD BOUT; Keen Interest Shown in Light-Heavyweight Clash on Tues- day....

Tommy Loughran, Philadelphia lightheavyweight, is expected to give Harry Greb of Pittsburgh, holder of the American light-heavyweight title, a hard battle when they clash for fifteen rounds Tuesday night at Madison Square Garden. The contest will witness the first title struggle at the year in the Garden."

Hmmm....seems no one cared.Very disdainful.

This is an interesting article , notice it talks of the light heavy championship, in no uncertain terms, and in very certain terms....This potrays what this paper thinks of the title too......

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...b+tunney&hl=en

As for "the so called title bout", don't worry mate you can find that with official title too. This sort of reference was not uncommon...Perhaps you are carried away by the fact that the author of the article fails to recognize that so called meagre crowd was seldom seen in the official light heavy weight bout in America.

As I said I did not look into thr ring records, neither did I look into boxrec history...I looked into the history of those who held the title, the popular belief etc...And the American Title (fortunately or Unfortunatelyhad the better credentials at those moments).

"So, to settle it."

It does not settle anything...It merely over rides the fact that Greb beat the best light heavy of the the time to hold a title that had better credentials than the light heavy belt.

As I said, I looked hard into each belt holder and I think I know what I am talking off...since you disagree, lets leave at that.

One last piece of advice while writing lines like teh above in bold, try reading more than one article about the same piece...Otherwise you will be caught in the wrong foot...There is more evidence that the American titlewas viewed in better light than the World one...

[Greatest1942]

The second line in the first link clearly states American Champion.

Two questions :-
1) Did I deny it was the American version? I said it had the most credibility...You are saying something new here?

2) What did the first link say? As I said Tunney had the title which most people of the time thought valid...

What was in those articles that proves other wise?

[Barn]

May be I am being a bit thick, but what you mean by the above in bold, escapes me, since Greb was a bonafide LHW champ. He got the title when he beat Tunney.

Besides this argument is silly, we're debating over context this ain't a literacy forum but, the fact remains Greb was not the LHW Champion of the world.

[Greatest1942]

Besides this argument is silly, we're debating over context this ain't a literacy forum but, the fact remains Greb was not the LHW Champion of the world.

Didn't I say that, and in most of the articles I provided its said he won the US version of the title. Where the hell I denied it was the American version? You raised this query before.

You already asked, and I replied...and I stated why I consider the US belt that time, to be the most legitimate...What are you actually saying new? And what part I say you dont understand, you go back to apost made pages ago, while we have debated it even the post before.

Look let me state again...Greb won the Title (American one) from Tunney, but it so happens that at that point of time it was probably the one with best credentials...if you disagree, provide your arguments, or just state you don't accept, whats the point in harping over the same stuff again and again.

[BennyST]

Didn't I say that, and in most of the articles I provided its said he won the US version of the title. Where the hell I denied it was the American version? You raised this query before.

You already asked, and I replied...and I stated why I consider the US belt that time, to be the most legitimate...What are you actually saying new? And what part I say you dont understand, you go back to apost made pages ago, while we have debated it even the post before.

Look let me state again...Greb won the Title (American one) from Tunney, but it so happens that at that point of time it was probably the one with best credentials...if you disagree, provide your arguments, or just state you don't accept, whats the point in harping over the same stuff again and again.

No, you're missing the point. We had, both of us, said that Greb and Tunney were considered the best fighters at LHW. But they were never the champion which you kept on saying was untrue and insultingly so. Initially, you never said it was a minor US title and never stated that although they were not the champions, they were considered the best and uncrowned champions of the division.

It was you that was not understanding what we were saying. Go read the posts again. It says in every post, multiple times that Greb and Tunney were considered the best at LHW and both were the dominant forces there. We also said they were never the world LHW champion which, no matter how many times we explained what was going on, you quite simply refused to see and stated over and over that it was untrue and that both were the LHW champions. You've only backtracked and started saying it was a US title in the last few posts. If you simply said that they were not the legitimate titled world champion, but held a US title while being considered the true but uncrowned champs it would have been agreed upon straight away. It's what we had been saying the whole goddamned time!

We know that it was only the US title, we know that they were the best, but they were never the champion. It was said so many times but you kept disagreeing and saying they were both the champion.

Why not, in your first highly insulting post, just said that while they were never the champion they were both considered the top guys at LHW? It's what I had said in the same post you scathingly replied to anyway but suddenly it's what you had been saying all along and we are wrong! Disagreeing and saying I had no credibility whatsoever because they were both clearly the LHW champions!

Now you take it back and say what I had been saying the whole time, even though the only reason we had this argument was because you had been saying it was untrue, that I was stupid and lacked credibility and disagreeing with a straight fact, but now suddenly agree and pretend it was you saying that all along? Come on man.

[DarkTerror88]

I wish there was footage of Greb fighting. You can ask any credible poster in the history section, that I don't rate on footage or quality or things like that, which most of today's fans do. But you have to admit. It would be far easier to judge guys like Gans and Greb and Langford if we had extensive footage.

More on Topic: I just recently watched some of Duran's peak performance fights (Bizarro, De Jesus trilogy, SRL 1) and some of his later bodies of work (pun intended) such as Moore, Barkley, Fitzgerald etc. And I must say, Duran makes a hell of an argument for himself. A hell of an argument.

But then I look at Greb's resume and see all those HoFers and ATGs, then I remember he fought most of his career blind in one eye....jeez.

I give the nod to Greb ever so slightly.

[Barn]

I wish there was footage of Greb fighting. You can ask any credible poster in the history section, that I don't rate on footage or quality or things like that, which most of today's fans do. But you have to admit. It would be far easier to judge guys like Gans and Greb and Langford if we had extensive footage.

More on Topic: I just recently watched some of Duran's peak performance fights (Bizarro, De Jesus trilogy, SRL 1) and some of his later bodies of work (pun intended) such as Moore, Barkley, Fitzgerald etc. And I must say, Duran makes a hell of an argument for himself. A hell of an argument.

But then I look at Greb's resume and see all those HoFers and ATGs, then I remember he fought most of his career blind in one eye....jeez.

I give the nod to Greb ever so slightly.

Joe Gans in HD :wank:

[Greatest1942]

No, you're missing the point. We had, both of us, said that Greb and Tunney were considered the best fighters at LHW. But they were never the champion which you kept on saying was untrue and insultingly so. Initially, you never said it was a minor US title and never stated that although they were not the champions, they were considered the best and uncrowned champions of the division.

It was you that was not understanding what we were saying. Go read the posts again. It says in every post, multiple times that Greb and Tunney were considered the best at LHW and both were the dominant forces there. We also said they were never the world LHW champion which, no matter how many times we explained what was going on, you quite simply refused to see and stated over and over that it was untrue and that both were the LHW champions. You've only backtracked and started saying it was a US title in the last few posts. If you simply said that they were not the legitimate titled world champion, but held a US title while being considered the true but uncrowned champs it would have been agreed upon straight away. It's what we had been saying the whole goddamned time!

We know that it was only the US title, we know that they were the best, but they were never the champion. It was said so many times but you kept disagreeing and saying they were both the champion.

Why not, in your first highly insulting post, just said that while they were never the champion they were both considered the top guys at LHW? It's what I had said in the same post you scathingly replied to anyway but suddenly it's what you had been saying all along and we are wrong! Disagreeing and saying I had no credibility whatsoever because they were both clearly the LHW champions!

Now you take it back and say what I had been saying the whole time, even though the only reason we had this argument was because you had been saying it was untrue, that I was stupid and lacked credibility and disagreeing with a straight fact, but now suddenly agree and pretend it was you saying that all along? Come on man.

First it was never the 'minor' title...It had the better credentials than the 'major' one. I stand by it.And crowds in the 'minor' one were better than the major one, may be due to better fighters thoough...so was the interest level.

1) It appeared to me from your posts that you did not know of the American version, you never mentioned...yes we both mentioned that Greb and Tunney were top guys at LHW, but you never mentioned the American Light Heavy championship...I am not going back by the by...I don't say they were just top guys like you, I say they had the belt which had the better credentials...This might not have come to pass if you had simply mentioned that they had the American LHW championship, which however you chose to ignore. (which many do, in all fairness.)..Since time immemorial there have been versions of belt and most were ignored by the general public unlike today, except this onje, which was actually more accepted than the original one. To me public acceptance of the belt is a measure of its actual significance. I hope you understand my gripe with you in your first post now.

2) I said they were LHW champions, where I should have clarified that they were American light heavy weight belt holders...If you misunderstood that this is my fault...As me misunderstanding the part about your post, was your fault...lets cancel this out.

3) Barn raised the question, I replied and said its true, and I hold the LHW championship in lesser regard, because of teh credetentials, that post is still lying there and it was made pages ago. Go read that too.Its in page 3 probably, right after my second post.

4) I gave sources, in most of them it was clearly written they were American belt holders, just to prove, I could have picked up sources where they were mentioned as light heavy champs only.

5) You picked up one point of "meagre crowd", and lack of interest etc, which was preposterous...So I showed you other sources that there were more interest in those bouts than the world light heavy championship. I hope I backed up what I said about public acceptance, do you wanna see more proof? Because to tell you again I am not going back. As I said again and again I have not denied that they were American versions, but there was more than a "passing interest" in it.

6) As I said , I just read the newspaper and even today it appears to me that the world light heavy title in those days was a complete farce and the American version was better...more accepted by the public.

7)I admit I should have mentioned about this in the first post but considering you never mentioned that I was perplexed...It did not appear from you posts then that you don't consider that a belt (which is fine many do so).I naturally thought that you are ignorant of the fact. You say you said that multiple times and I ignored, teh first time barn raised teh point I accepted, and said yes. And firstly I never mentioned your mention of the American belt, if you read more on the era you will see that version of the belt had more public acceptance, unlike say the titles Langford and Willis held...

Never mind, if you got hurt or my posts appeared scathing to you, it was more due to my misunderstanding your posts and replying.

As I said I still think the belt which Tunney had the more credentials, but its a unorthodox view, one which I came to recently after having read tonnes of newspapers. I don't ask you to agree to it, but I would like you to acknowledge that there was more than "meagre" interest in it...and actually more than the 'official' one...Still if you persist on they were not champs, I will have to agree to disagree.

[Sugarj]

I wish there was footage of Greb fighting. You can ask any credible poster in the history section, that I don't rate on footage or quality or things like that, which most of today's fans do. But you have to admit. It would be far easier to judge guys like Gans and Greb and Langford if we had extensive footage.

More on Topic: I just recently watched some of Duran's peak performance fights (Bizarro, De Jesus trilogy, SRL 1) and some of his later bodies of work (pun intended) such as Moore, Barkley, Fitzgerald etc. And I must say, Duran makes a hell of an argument for himself. A hell of an argument.

But then I look at Greb's resume and see all those HoFers and ATGs, then I remember he fought most of his career blind in one eye....jeez.

I give the nod to Greb ever so slightly.

Your right, Duran does make an excellent argument for himself!

There isn't much footage of Langford, and next to nothing for Greb. But there is strangely quite a bit for Gans.

Its odd that a lightweight would get more fight filming than the heavier Langford and Greb. I'll bet there are films of Greb out there, but they are not yet in the public domain.