Dempsey vs. Marciano

[GhostofDempsey]

There's so much wrong here, I could go on for days.

Fleisher was a reporter, Ali was a fighter. The greatest Heavyweight champion of all-time, in fact. Ali replicated Gene Tunney's style. That tells me way more than a reporter's flawed/failing/biased memory.

This is bigger than Nat Fleischer. Attorneys know that eyewitness testimony is very flawed. Historians even take a scientific approach by working to DISPROVE eyewitness accounts to get the most accurate impression possible of events. In my field - pharma/dme - placebos are used regularly because human prescription is flawed.

There's footage of Johnson and his opponents. He struggled with Ketchel - it wasn't a fixed fight. His own recollection of his fights has been proven false.

Johnson was chinny. Got KO’d by 168 pound Joe Choynski, lol. Fleischer didn’t include Ali or Frazier in his top ten all time before he died in 1972.

[Zmerai Khan]

Johnson was chinny. Got KO’d by 168 pound Joe Choynski, lol. Fleischer didn’t include Ali or Frazier in his top ten all time before he died in 1972.

Great catch!

Makes sense from a guy whom Houdini claims called Johnson the "brainiest". Probably they wrote letters to each other in crayon.

[HOUDINI563]

Zmerai. You have no idea what you are writing about.

Ali did not “replicate” Tunneys style. Both were slick boxers but Ali’s style was his own.

Johnson did not struggle with Ketchel. As per Gunboat Smith who was at ringside and was a sparring partner for both men the bout was completely one sided and the kd by Ketchel faked.

Fleischer knew personally Johnson and was at ringside at his fights. Expert eyewitness testimony trumps an amateur like yourself 100 years after the fact.

An amateur like yourself has no place to even attempt to critique me. I’ve studied all these fighter at a depth you can never dream of.

[HOUDINI563]

By 1972 Ali was considered a fringe top ten ATG champion. It was not until he beat Foreman and then Frazier in Manilia that he became a universal top ten ATG. That’s boxing history 101.

Secondly a good historian never ranks a fighter that is currently active as an ATG. A fighter has a lot to prove in order to be ranked with those who came before him that proved ATG characteristics.

[HOUDINI563]

Choynski Was a brutal puncher. Jeffries commented that he was hit the hardest by Choynski.

Johnson was early in his career when he lost to Choynski.

[GhostofDempsey]

Choynski Was a brutal puncher. Jeffries commented that he was hit the hardest by Choynski.

Johnson was early in his career when he lost to Choynski.

Ok, so we'll pretend that if Canelo KO'd Ortiz, that Ortiz wouldn't be considered a laughing stock after that.

[GhostofDempsey]

By 1972 Ali was considered a fringe top ten ATG champion. It was not until he beat Foreman and then Frazier in Manilia that he became a universal top ten ATG. That’s boxing history 101.

Secondly a good historian never ranks a fighter that is currently active as an ATG. A fighter has a lot to prove in order to be ranked with those who came before him that proved ATG characteristics.

Before 1972, Ali was the self-proclaimed greatest. Nat Fleischer said that Ali and Frazier weren't even in the same league as Dempsey and Tunney. This is the guy whose testimony you want to tout? I'm playing a little devil's advocate too, because I was never truly sold on Ali's greatness--or at least not to the degree that most media heads praise him, but to say he wasn't in the same league? A win over Foreman and Norton doesn't suddenly catapult your legacy into the stratosphere.

[HOUDINI563]

Ghost.... you don’t know what you are talking about.

Ali was not rated as an ATG by most in 1972. Why? His career was yet over. KNOWLEDGEABLE historians are PATIENT and DO NOT jump to conclusion until all boxes are checked. In 1974 Ali reworn the hwt championship by koing a fighter thought to be unbeatable. Ali however had yet to prove himself in a life or death struggle with a top opponent. That occurred in 1975 when he stopped Frazier in a fightmost would have lost. THIS cemented Ali as a premier top ATG hwt champion as he exhibited those characteristics EXPECTED of ATG fighters. Ali by mid 1970’s was then considered universally at least a top ten ATG hwt champion. His stock has only risen since.

[johnbook]

I remember it like it was yesterday.

Cosell interviewing Ali who was sitting on a chaise. Cosell had predicted Ali would lose, by KO IIRC to Foreman, as nearly everyone else did.

Here shortly after Ali made it look easy in defeating the "invincible" Foreman, Cosell told him, "You ARE the greatest heavyweight boxer of all time." Cosell first went over how a long 10 years earlier Ali had TKOed another "invincible" HW champion.

Upon hearing Cosell's words, Ali did a mock deep exhalation and mock sliding off his chaise. It was gold.

Beating Frazier in Manilla was just icing on the cake and was expected.

IMO the little cited Ali-Frazier II may have been Ali's greatest victory. He danced and it was relatively easy for him, at least compared to the other two.

In the 2nd round of that fight the ref Perez--through ineptness or corruption--halted the round with a minute to go when Ali's blows had Frazier in very deep trouble, denying Ali the KD and maybe KO with a minute to go.

We never saw the best 3 years of the greatest boxer ever. His punches were getting more powerful at the start of the ban and he would have still been a dancing phenom. He would likely have defeated Frazier in 67-70 similarly to how he defeated Liston--without absorbing much punishment.

He lost out, and we all lost out: poetry and science in motion--Muhammad Ali.

[HOUDINI563]

No. Ali was not stopping Frazier in round two of their second bout.

It was not expected that Ali would best Frazier in75. Odds going into the fight were close. But what’s important is what actually occurred. A No 1 contender and former champion took Ali to the brink yet he came back to win. This bout convinced the knowledgeable historians that Ali deserved ATG ranking.