My top 25 ATG list

[Pastrano]

WTH? you have Chavez on that list but no Whitaker.

Whitaker just misses the list, sorry. Chavez beat Meldrick Taylor and Edwin Rosario, Whitaker didn't fight them. And Camacho too.

[New England]

curiously, why no heavyweights?

[StarshipTrooper]

curiously, why no heavyweights?

I don't put Heavyweights on p4p lists either. My rational is that the lighter weight classes produce the better fighters. Heavyweights also get too damn much attention as it is.

Poet

[The Surgeon]

I don't put Heavyweights on p4p lists either. My rational is that the lighter weight classes produce the better fighters. Heavyweights also get too damn much attention as it is.

Poet

Im not against it, if ur exceptional ur exceptional its just that the lighter guys tend to be better.

Tyson, Holyfield, Ali guys like that are p4p types in my opinion but a guy like Klitchko wins mainly because his size and not his talent, if he was 6'1 and 15.8st he'd be fodder

[The Surgeon]

Heavyweights and active fighters are not included.

Be as picky in your criticisms as you want, I won't get offended, I enjoy debate. However, do not spew general crap at me e.g. saying I overrate old fighters without specifying why and producing a coherent argument.

- Ray Robinson
- Harry Greb
- Sam Langford
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Benny Leonard
7. Willie Pep
8. Roberto Duran
9. Bob Fitzsimmons
10. Archie Moore
11. Mickey Walker
12. Holman Williams
13. Ray Leonard
14. Joe Gans
15. Eder Jofre
16. Pernell Whitaker
17. Gene Tunney
18. Charley Burley
19. Alexis Arguello
20. Kid Gavilan
21. Barney Ross
22. Jake Lamotta
23. Barbados Joe Walcott
24. Jose Napoles
25. Jimmy Mclarnin

Butcher away boys!

Good list RubenSonny.

Obviously everyone cant agree on everything but id never have Lamotta in mine and i think Fitzsimmons is way too high but good list none the less bud

[RubenSonny]

curiously, why no heavyweights?

i'll just add onto poets points.

I don't put Heavyweights on p4p lists either. My rational is that the lighter weight classes produce the better fighters. Heavyweights also get too damn much attention as it is.

Poet

Agreed, and also a pure heavyweight also has a somewhat limited amount of top quality fighters to face, generally they can only face their contenders in their division, but other fighters can fight many different great fighters who have proved themselves in other weight-classes. Also while I don't put that much in stake in weight and size difference as some, I put much less emphasis on size or weight difference for heavyweights (as most people naturally do), just the rules of the heavyweight division being limitless. Only Ali and Louis would be make it in this list anyway.

[Vadrigar.]

This is mine:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Harry Greb
5. Joe Louis
6. Sam Langford
7. Willie Pep
8. Roberto Duran
9. Ezzard Charles
10. Archie Moore

[RubenSonny]

I don't get the whole no heavyweights thing. Why not? Other than that, looks good. Not so sure about Holman Williams being so high but hey, to each their own.

Ahh missed this, well I've responded in the post above. Can you think of 12 fighters clearly greater than Williams?

1. Henry Armstrong
2. Harry Greb
3. Sugar Ray Robinson
4. Eder Jofre
5. Roberto Duran
6. Willie Pep
7. Joe Gans
8. Julio Cesar Chavez
9. Benny Leonard
10. Jimmy Wylde
11. Carlos Ortiz
12. Sugar Ray Leonard
13. Thomas Hearns
14. Tony Canzoneri
15. Barney Ross
16. Joe Louis
17. Emile Griffith
18. Alexis Arguello
19. Jose Napoles
20. Kid Gavilan
21. Luis Manuel Rodriguez
22. Archie Moore
23. Fritzie Zivic
24. Wilfred Benitez
25. Carlos Monzon

This is a bad list but definitely exceeded my expectations, thumbs up for you

WTH? you have Chavez on that list but no Whitaker.

He's a notorious Whitaker hater, he has Chavez at number 8, thats pretty much all you need to know.

[Vadrigar.]

Ahh missed this, well I've responded in the post above. Can you think of 12 fighters clearly greater than Williams?



This is a bad list but definitely exceeded my expectations, thumbs up for you



He's a notorious Whitaker hater, he has Chavez at number 8, thats pretty much all you need to know.

I was going to type a reply to him including Whitaker's accomplishments but after reading this thread I didn't bother:

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=485697

You are right.

[RubenSonny]

Good list RubenSonny.

Obviously everyone cant agree on everything but id never have Lamotta in mine and i think Fitzsimmons is way too high but good list none the less bud

Thanks man, best thing to come out of Europe IMO, I think hes top 10 material, I'd like to know why you think that?

This is mine:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Harry Greb
5. Joe Louis
6. Sam Langford
7. Willie Pep
8. Roberto Duran
9. Ezzard Charles
10. Archie Moore

Nice nice