1 Billion: Is there a case of Tyson being a top 5 heavyweight? not in my opinion

[BigStereotype]

Did Roy Jones ever come back from behind to win in his prime?
Sugar Ray Leonard?
Shane Mosley?
Floyd Mayweather?

Roy was so much better than everyone that he was never really behind in a fight in the first place.
Uh yeah, against Tommy Hearns.
Yes, in his biggest win against De La Hoya I. Oscar controlled the first part of that fight and Shane won the stretch rounds.
Floyd came back against Castillo and recovered quite nicely when Shane had him on queer street.

Point being that the ability to come back is a vital skill for any great fighter. You're not always going to blow everyone out and the problem is, Tyson didn't often beat credible guys he couldn't just annihilate. He's certainly an ATG but top five is pretty absurd.

[Forza]

Tyson fought in a good era, he just avoided all the good boxers for as long as he could. LL, holyfield etc

bowe would have smashed him as well. Probably moorer too.

[hent]

Tucker - Career underachiever that Tyson hardly look impressive getting a decision over.

Williams - Mediocre fringe contender.

Thomas - Fresh out of rehab after squandering his ability on blow.

Golota - Notorious head case who pops a nutter against every top opponent.

Smith - Please. He was a mediocre joke when he fought Holmes and he was still a mediocre joke when he fought Tyson. And Tyson looked aweful aginst him.

Berbick - Worst fighter to ever hold a Heavyweight belt. Complete joke.

Tubbs - In a decent era this fatty doesn't crack the top-5.

Biggs - Absolute joke who was never a real contender.

Brunox2 - Lost every time he stepped up in class usually by KO.

Holmes - Noticably past-prime well before Tyson, hadn't fought in two years, come in out of shape after a short camp and STILL made Tyson look foolish for a couple of rounds.

Spinks - Not an outstanding Heavy. Came in looking like a deer caught in the headlights and started looking for a soft spot to lay down.

Seldon - You mean the dude that got KOed without even being hit? Please.

Sorry dude, but Tyson fought in a weak era during his prime and has a mediocre resume as a consequence. When your best opponent is a past-it fighter coming off a big layoff it doesn't speak much to your resume.

Poet

I actually think Holyfield and Holmes have better resumes than Tyson.

My original point was that if Liston, Frazier and Foreman have a top 5 place then I think Tyson has at least a case for being there. There resumes(who they beat) are no better than Tysons in my opinion.

[StarshipTrooper]

I actually think Holyfield and Holmes have better resumes than Tyson.

My original point was that if Liston, Frazier and Foreman have a top 5 place then I think Tyson has at least a case for being there. There resumes(who they beat) are no better than Tysons in my opinion.

Frazier beat Quarry twice, Ellis twice, Bonevena twice, and an Ali once who had a lot more left in the tank than the Holmes that Tyson fought. That's 7 fights better than anything on Tyson's resume.

Liston beat Williams twice and Patterson twice, Eddie Machen once, Zora Folley once.....again, better than anything on Tyson's resume.

Foreman beat Frazier twice which is better then everyone on Tyson's resume combined.

Poet

[BigStereotype]

Frazier beat Quarry twice, Ellis twice, Bonevena twice, and an Ali once who had a lot more left in the tank than the Holmes that Tyson fought. That's 7 fights better than anything on Tyson's resume.

Liston beat Williams twice and Patterson twice, Eddie Machen once, Zora Folley once.....again, better than anything on Tyson's resume.

Foreman beat Frazier twice which is better then everyone on Tyson's resume combined.

Poet

Is Cleveland Williams really better than anyone on Tyson's resume? I've only ever seen him as an opponent and he got blown out both times (Liston and Ali...I should probably see more of him). Foreman is a no-doubter for me (as far as being greater than Tyson) but Liston and Frazier are sort of in the same tier as him. Resume-wise, they probably squeak him, but combining H2H and resume, Tyson could be higher. I don't think he beats out Liston, but maybe Frazier.

[hent]

Frazier beat Quarry twice, Ellis twice, Bonevena twice, and an Ali once who had a lot more left in the tank than the Holmes that Tyson fought. That's 7 fights better than anything on Tyson's resume.

Liston beat Williams twice and Patterson twice, Eddie Machen once, Zora Folley once.....again, better than anything on Tyson's resume.

Foreman beat Frazier twice which is better then everyone on Tyson's resume combined.

Poet

Wow OK. It seems we have vastly different opinions on Tysons opponents. I cant see how an Ellis Frazier beat the second time is better than every single Tyson win. I think that a post manilla Frazier would get stopped by quite a few of Tysons opponents. So I guess theres no point debating any further..

[StarshipTrooper]

Wow OK. It seems we have vastly different opinions on Tysons opponents. I cant see how an Ellis Frazier beat the second time is better than every single Tyson win. I think that a post manilla Frazier would get stopped by quite a few of Tysons opponents. So I guess theres no point debating any further..

If it hadn't been for this current cesspool of a Heavyweight division the 1980s may well have gone down as the worst ever era for Heavies. Why do you think Tyson got so overhyped in the first place? He was taking out the trash that's why.

Poet

[Sugarj]

Jones didnt fight the good quality opposition to have to come back from behind to win a fight, as for Sugar ray Leonard you seem to have forgotten about the 1st Hearns fight- wasnt he behind and came back to win? so he did show heart, and also during his fight with Philadelphias Kevin Howard Leonard was knocked down in the fourth round and came back to stop him in the ninth round
As for Mayweather he hasnt fought the quality of opposition to test him just like with Roy Jones.
Its about the fact that in these fights he wasnt able to come back to win, after his opponents stood up to him he just collapsed into his shell. And i would argue that biting off someones ear is a sign of collapsing mentally.

Good call on the first Hearns fight with Leonard. Where was my brain?

Baring the knockdown I wouldn't have said Howard was ahead. It was a very ring rusty Ray Leonard that night, he had been out of the ring with eye problems for a couple of years, not what I would have called prime.

But going back to the point of Tyson never having to come back from behind to win, yes Jones and Mayweather have fought some mediocre opposition, but people don't seem to spout off half as much about them never having to come back from behind to win as with Mike Tyson.

Yes Tyson snapped against Holyfield in their second fight. This was not a prime Tyson, I don't think his post prison performances were anything like prime Tyson. He wasn't the same athlete, he wasn't the same boxer or the same man. Prior to Holyfield 2, he took his beatings like a man and never gave up trying, he did not 'collapse into a shell' against Buster Douglas or Holyfield first time round despite being clearly bettered on the night.

Its a myth that all you had to do was stand up to Tyson and he would collapse mentally, Ruddock put some serious hurt on Tyson in both fights.

[Sugarj]

Its just to illustrate that Tyson always had those fears from a young age- as a refutation for ppl who say that he only gained the fear after losing to buster douglas - anyone can take a beating in the ring, itgs about coming back from behind to win.

I personally don't believe Tyson had any more or less fear than the average world class heavyweight in his prime. He certainly seemed rather less fearful than many of his opponents at that time.

I don't put too much importance on a fighter's ability to come back from behind to win if they genuinely weren't tested in their prime. We just don't know the answer and I don't believe that looking for clues from his teenage amateur history or in the decline of his career when he clearly wasn't the man he once was means too much.

Would the Buster Douglas from Tokyo have beaten the very best version of Mike Tyson?

Would 1996 Holyfield have beaten the very best version of Mike Tyson?

I'd honestly say no, despite their standing up to him and displaying such fortitude.

[Sugarj]

Roy was so much better than everyone that he was never really behind in a fight in the first place.
Uh yeah, against Tommy Hearns.
Yes, in his biggest win against De La Hoya I. Oscar controlled the first part of that fight and Shane won the stretch rounds.
Floyd came back against Castillo and recovered quite nicely when Shane had him on queer street.

Point being that the ability to come back is a vital skill for any great fighter. You're not always going to blow everyone out and the problem is, Tyson didn't often beat credible guys he couldn't just annihilate. He's certainly an ATG but top five is pretty absurd.

I've personally never argued that Tyson is top five, so we agree there.

I've admitted my dementia about Leonard vs Hearns 1 to Kendom. Very good example. But not something Leonard had to do very often. Tyson didn't half come close to knocking out Buster Douglas in the 8th round when well behind. If the fight had been stopped, no one would have been doubting Tyson's ability to turn a losing fight around.

I've watched Mosley vs De la Hoya many times. I'd never count that as a come from behind win for Shane. Most rounds were so close and Shane was never hurt or in trouble early on. Its hardly a Chavez vs Taylor example or a Louis vs Walcott 2.

Likewise with Floyd vs Castillo, that was never a true come from behind victory or a test of heart and guts. I've never understood how anyone could have called that fight close.

Yea Mosley had a good round 2 against Floyd and stunned him.

But Tyson was stunned against Bruno and Ruddock (first time around in each case) and came back to win. So really we can't cite that example of how Floyd has proved his ability to come back any more than Tyson.

I've never had a doubt about the fighting hearts of prime Jones, Mayweather or Leonard. Likewise with prime Tyson.

We should all bear in mind that post prime fighters often do not display the fighting hearts of their prime. Mosley, in his fight with Pacquiou is one example, likewise Tyson against Holyfield 2 or in his last fight against McBride. Benn vs Collins 2. Tyson's heart for a good scrap seems to have been much malligned since Holyfield 2.