Ali vs. Louis- Tale Of The Tape (Comparisons)

[Dempsey1238]

yeha Folly was pass it indeed.

Lost foot, and hand speed.

I dont put a lot of stock in Ali's 1960's run. Most of the guys he fought were pass there primes. If you see Folly in his prime. You can see his hand speed. Dont judge Folly on Ali. He was shot. I belive Folly retire after the Ali fight right?

[Yogi]

yeha Folly was pass it indeed.

Lost foot, and hand speed.

I dont put a lot of stock in Ali's 1960's run. Most of the guys he fought were pass there primes. If you see Folly in his prime. You can see his hand speed. Dont judge Folly on Ali. He was shot. I belive Folly retire after the Ali fight right?

Folley ended losing to the mediocre Brian London a few months after facing Ali, and London himself was described as being "near the end of the line when the opportunity came to fight Ali."

What hypocrisy this Butterfly displays at times...He's calling you out if you dare mention anything but the 1967 version of Ali, but at the same time he's trying to pass off these past their prime opponents of Ali's as completely legitimate reasoning as to why Ali would win a fantasy fight vs. (fill in name).

[Dempsey1238]

Ali may seem to be prime, to his fans in the 1960's. Maybe, maybe not.

What they are forgetting, though is Ali prove his greatness, in the 1970's.

A win over a shot Folly means nothing, when you ko Foreman in 8, or had 3 great battles with Fraizer.

Ali may have been slower by the 1970's. But he was Smarter. I think both 60's Ali, and 70's Ali are not that far away skill wise. Speed going to 60's Ali.

Had Ali stay ban from boxing. Ali would hardly be in my top ten list.

[Heckler]

LOL!

Yeah, you tell them, Heckler...and curse the likes of Angelo Dundee, George Plimpton, Sports Illustrated, and even Ali himself for having the audacity to suggest he was going to give up in those fights.

I believe Ali over anyone. I believe Ali to be arrogant, sometimes cruel but not a quitter, and not a liar. He said that he was considering to quit the 15th round also... but then later said that he said that to be nice. Now i find that alot more realistic then Ali going to quit with only one round left when Joe Frazier can barely throw a shot and he is clearly ahead on points by a large margin. Not after seeing the first two frazier fights and the foreman fight, and knowing of Ali's ego... i think its reasonable to dismiss the rumor of Ali giving up in Manila. At the end of the day if he was going to give up, HE WOULD OF. Its possible that he was going to give up in the first liston fight, then again he was a scared young man who couldn't see properly against someone as formidable as Liston. People will pull out anything to discredit Ali, but you cannot, not matter how much you dislike him, take his determination and heart away from him.

[Oasis_Lad]

anyone who says ali has no heart or is a quitter deserves a smack

[Yogi]

I believe Ali over anyone. I believe Ali to be arrogant, sometimes cruel but not a quitter, and not a liar. He said that he was considering to quit the 15th round also... but then later said that he said that to be nice. Now i find that alot more realistic then Ali going to quit with only one round left when Joe Frazier can barely throw a shot and he is clearly ahead on points by a large margin. Not after seeing the first two frazier fights and the foreman fight, and knowing of Ali's ego... i think its reasonable to dismiss the rumor of Ali giving up in Manila. At the end of the day if he was going to give up, HE WOULD OF. Its possible that he was going to give up in the first liston fight, then again he was a scared young man who couldn't see properly against someone as formidable as Liston. People will pull out anything to discredit Ali, but you cannot, not matter how much you dislike him, take his determination and heart away from him.

First off I don't dislike Ali at all...Far from it. Then again I don't bow down to him like many others do and hold him as some kind of God-like being.

And to dismiss something, it might be best if you get the rounds right as far as Manilla goes, because it wasn't the 15th round where Ali allegedly had thoughts about quitting...

"Ali slumped into his corner at the end of the 10th round exhausted and contemplated quitting." - Sports Illustrated, Oct 13th, 1975

I also provided quotes from Dundee & Plimpton (who quoted Ali, who's opinion you value over all others) in regards to the Liston fight a couple of weeks ago, so I'm not about to retype them again...Should be easy to find for you by doing a search, though, and remember that those were their words not my own.

[Heckler]

First off I don't dislike Ali at all...Far from it. Then again I don't bow down to him like many others do and hold him as some kind of God-like being.

And to dismiss something, it might be best if you get the rounds right as far as Manilla goes, because it wasn't the 15th round where Ali allegedly had thoughts about quitting...

"Ali slumped into his corner at the end of the 10th round exhausted and contemplated quitting." - Sports Illustrated, Oct 13th, 1975

I also provided quotes from Dundee & Plimpton (who quoted Ali, who's opinion you value over all others) in regards to the Liston fight a couple of weeks ago, so I'm not about to retype them again...Should be easy to find for you by doing a search, though, and remember that those were their words not my own.

The only quote i take any note of is ALI's, only he knows what was running through his head. But you still dont get it do you, IF ALI wanted to quit... he would of... contemplation means nothing, Cus D amato said something along the lines of 'What you did in the end is what you meant all along' Thats not exact, but the meaning is essentially the same... i thing that applies well here. Theres a bit of simple logic for ya.

[LondonRingRules]

** I forget the bio, but in one Ali is quoted as telling Dundee he was done and couldn't come out. Frazier had one of his camp in Ali's corner, a former lighter champ who I can't remember the name of right now, who desperately tried to make it over to Frazier's corner to let them know. Unfortunately Futch turned around and waved over to the ref that he was stopping the fight as the guy was fighting his way around the ring.

Joe has talked about this several times and still has bitterness towards Futch who died a few years ago. If you look at the tape as people swarm in the ring, Ali collapses as soon as he rises off his stool, and Frazier is hopping up and down in frustration as they are trying to cut him out of his gloves.

Frazier was still incredibly strong and had enough to bull Ali into the ropes and unleash Hell on him in that last round. Frazier's swollen right eye would not have been a factor, Ali's fatigue would, indeed, it's debatable whether he would have gotten off his stool that last round.

Look, Ali won the fight and gets more credit than Frazier. It was the luck of the draw in essence, maybe payback for Frazier first getting the older comebacking Ali in their first fight instead of the prime version. But the facts remain that Ali, IF he was ever invincible, it was only a brief slice of years, say from 65-67. Before and after that, he was beatable and struggled mightily at time and at the end of the day has more controversial wins than any fighter in memory, so a bit of context might be due at very least if not a large serving of humble pie.

[hellfire508]

** I forget the bio, but in one Ali is quoted as telling Dundee he was done and couldn't come out. Frazier had one of his camp in Ali's corner, a former lighter champ who I can't remember the name of right now, who desperately tried to make it over to Frazier's corner to let them know. Unfortunately Futch turned around and waved over to the ref that he was stopping the fight as the guy was fighting his way around the ring.

Joe has talked about this several times and still has bitterness towards Futch who died a few years ago. If you look at the tape as people swarm in the ring, Ali collapses as soon as he rises off his stool, and Frazier is hopping up and down in frustration as they are trying to cut him out of his gloves.

Frazier was still incredibly strong and had enough to bull Ali into the ropes and unleash Hell on him in that last round. Frazier's swollen right eye would not have been a factor, Ali's fatigue would, indeed, it's debatable whether he would have gotten off his stool that last round.

Look, Ali won the fight and gets more credit than Frazier. It was the luck of the draw in essence, maybe payback for Frazier first getting the older comebacking Ali in their first fight instead of the prime version. But the facts remain that Ali, IF he was ever invincible, it was only a brief slice of years, say from 65-67. Before and after that, he was beatable and struggled mightily at time and at the end of the day has more controversial wins than any fighter in memory, so a bit of context might be due at very least if not a large serving of humble pie.

I always say Ali wouldn't have quit, and I truly believe that.

But that was a good post.

[butterfly1964]

ali wasn't a quitter. if he was then he wouldn't fight with a broken jaw against norton, get up from the knockdown of joe frazier in '71, or want to go on against holmes even though he knows he has no chance.