Ali vs. Louis- Tale Of The Tape (Comparisons)

[BKM-]

Ali did great things OUSIDE of boxing too. Even if he saved the world, that doesn't give you the right to just call him the greatest.


And ALI HIMSELF SAID LOUIS WAS THE GREATEST. What do you have to say against that? Discussion ends right here.

[Brockton Lip]

I see Ali winning at least 2 out 3 by decision.

[hellfire508]

Ali did great things OUSIDE of boxing too. Even if he saved the world, that doesn't give you the right to just call him the greatest.


And ALI HIMSELF SAID LOUIS WAS THE GREATEST. What do you have to say against that? Discussion ends right here.

a) Ali never said it - if he did, it's out of respect.

b) Even if he did, how does that mean Louis would win a matchup? Louis KO 1 Tyson. Ali Ko 1 Tyson.

[hellfire508]

=======His competition is second to none at heavyweight. Plus, he was the three time heavyweight champion. 19 successful title defenses. And he interweaved politics into the sport like nobody else - and showed his qualities and worthiness of 'greatness' outside the ring too, with his stance on Vietnam. =============================

** Well, Sam Langford would have to disagree on the competition factor.

Perhaps you agreed with Ali's Vietnam stance, however his political reasoning was as child like as his poetry was. No great intellect there, just a willingness to stand up for his shaky NOI religious beliefs. Admirable on the courage meter, yet lacking on the astuteness meter.

Sam Langford? Are you serious? His competition was great overall - at heavyweight, nowhere near Ali's. What top 20 - let alone top 10 heavyweights did he beat? His best wins there are over Joe Jeannette, Sam Mcvea and Harry Wills. Very good fighters - but not top 20 material.

As for his "childlike" political reasoning - it may have sounded that way, but the principle of what he was arguing is true, and plausible as a reason not to be drafted.

Firstly - his religious beliefs did not allow him to go and fight the war. For someone like Ali, who was so passionate about his God and religion - disobeying such a law would be a major disrespect, and self-shaming act. (He did break some parts of Islamic code - i.e. women, though).

Secondly - How can you argue with what he said? "No Vietcong ever called me Ni**er". There is no poetic nature about the way he said it - but how can you disagree with what he is saying?

This isn't word for word, but this is from the movie "Ali" - which is close to what he actually said. I've only seen the real footage once, so I can't remember it word for word.

"I ain't draft dodging. I ain't burning no flag. I ain't running to Canada. I'm staying right here. You want to send me to jail? Fine, you go right ahead. I've been in jail for 400 years. I could be there for 4 or 5 more, but I ain't going no 10,000 miles to help murder and kill other poor people. If I want to die, I'll die right here, right now, fightin' you, if I want to die. You my enemy, not no Chinese, no Vietcong, no Japanese. You my opposer when I want freedom. You my opposer when I want justice. You my opposer when I want equality. Want me to go somewhere and fight for you? You won't even stand up for me right here in America, for my rights and my religious beliefs. You won't even stand up for my right here at home."

It reminds me of "Operation Human Shield" from the South Park Movie - blacks a treated like ****, and are sent to the frontline to fight for the opressive government.

[BKM-]

a) Ali never said it - if he did, it's out of respect.

b) Even if he did, how does that mean Louis would win a matchup? Louis KO 1 Tyson. Ali Ko 1 Tyson.

What the hell are you talking about you ****head? Its about Ali and Louis. Get out of this thread then.

[hellfire508]

What the hell are you talking about you ****head? Its about Ali and Louis. Get out of this thread then.

Ohhh did I hit a soft spot?

[LondonRingRules]

============Sam Langford? Are you serious? His competition was great overall - at heavyweight, nowhere near Ali's. What top 20 - let alone top 10 heavyweights did he beat? His best wins there are over Joe Jeannette, Sam Mcvea and Harry Wills. Very good fighters - but not top 20 material.

As for his "childlike" political reasoning - it may have sounded that way, but the principle of what he was arguing is true, and plausible as a reason not to be drafted.

Firstly - his religious beliefs did not allow him to go and fight the war. For someone like Ali, who was so passionate about his God and religion - disobeying such a law would be a major disrespect, and self-shaming act. (He did break some parts of Islamic code - i.e. women, though). =====================================

** Let's just say lastly here.

Sam's peers thought he was the best heavy of his era. When you look at the record, and see how many times Wills, Jeannette, and McVea fought each other, and more importantly, how many times Sam fought them, plus disposed of other top contenders that Johnson didn't want any part of, it's clear Sam had stiffer comp than Ali. Ali would have to face Frazier 5X, Norton 8x and Foreman 13x and still wouldn't match what Sam was doing.

Now, as far as Ali's logic, he was hiding behind his religion, claiming to be an NOI holy cleric. The NOI is a complete sham, a joke except back then it was more like a murderous cult. It's founder, Elijah Muhammed was a fraud and conman, and it's no accident that his sons, and his most famous devotees, Malcolm and Ali, all left to join a mainstream Sunni sect of Islam, leaving only Louis Farakahn to shore up the rear with his hate on ***s and whites.

Now, Ali did bring up some valid points about being oppressed, however he was working AGAINST MLK, advocating an armed struggle and a completely seperate nation for blacks, something that was tried and failed by former American ****** in Liberia.

Ali was courageous in putting his life and career on the line for what he believed, and operated within the full parameters of the law and is to be admired for that part of him. He was no holy man, no saint, no intellect however.

I would take care in quoting from the movie Ali. The project was a bigger joke than conman Elijah. BTW, reportedly Ali never made that VietCong ****** remark. I think he said, "I ain't got nothin' against no VietCong," and it got twisted in some newscopy somewhere with the ****** version and grew legs. Newsmen back then had an adversion to Ali and what he stood for and treated him pretty harshly in the press.

[hellfire508]

I agree about the Nation of Islam, yet it doesn't sway me from believing that Ali was totally justified in taking his stance.

Regarding Langford - I don't care how many times Langford fought Wills, McVea and Jeanette, it doesn't compare. As I conceded in the other thread, Langford's overall resume is superior to Ali's, but at heavy...how can it?

Langford went 7-3-4 with Jeannette. He went 4-2-6, plus a few no contests or decisions or something with Mcvea. And then went 2-13-1, with Harry Wills. I acknowledge Langford was something like 30 years old when he first met Wills, but that doesn't change the fact that he lost 13 times to him. So with those three - he went 13-18-11. All three of them - don't cut the top 20, and infact - maybe not even the top 25 heavyweights of all time. Conversley, Ali went 2-1 with Frazier - a top 10 heavyweight, who some rank as high as 5th. He went 2-0 with Liston, a top 10 heavyweight - and a seemingly indestructable monster. And beat Foreman (who some rank as high as 3rd) by knockout the sole time they fought, who was 40-0 after demolishing Frazier and Norton, and also considered invincible.

Langford was KO'd on several occasions throughout his career. Whereas Ali was never stopped, excluding the TKO against Holmes, which was stopped between rounds. Add to Ali's list of victims - Floyd Patterson, Ken Norton, George Chuvalo, Ernie Terrell, Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley, Oscar Bonavena, Ron Lyle, Jimmy Ellis, Jerry Quarry, Henry Cooper, Joe Bugner, Bob Foster, Buster Mathis, Doug Jones... its a great resume. Jerry Quarry is considered by many to be the greatest heavyweight to never win the title. Patterson and Norton are top 20 heavyweights according to most.

[BKM-]

Ohhh did I hit a soft spot?

Nah, i can also just say ****** things like
Joe Louis KO1 hellfire508's mama

[LondonRingRules]

Ali vs. Louis- Tale Of The Tape (Comparisons)

==============I agree about the Nation of Islam, yet it doesn't sway me from believing that Ali was totally justified in taking his stance.

Regarding Langford - I don't care how many times Langford fought Wills, McVea and Jeanette, it doesn't compare. As I conceded in the other thread, Langford's overall resume is superior to Ali's, but at heavy...how can it?=========================

** Easy

First let's get Wills out of the way. Sam was 94-9-19 when he first met the giant Wills. That's already a better record than Johnson finished with at age 54 and Sam was just 31 and half blind by then. Wills won the first match, which Sam was notorious for losing so he could set up the rematch, which Sam KOs Wills in. Sam did end up on the short end against Wills, but he was long past his best for almost all of those bouts, fighting completely blind by the end of his career.

What Sam did in the heavy division was go on a tear the likes of which has never been seen. From the time of his 2nd heavy bout against Johnson, where Sam only weighed 156 until Johnson lost his title 9 yrs later, Sam won almost as many bouts as Johnson finished his career with and only had a few losses. He was fighting a who's who of HOF heavies and other HOF fighters and usually won by KO. He KOed Jeannette, Obrien, and Ross, all of whom went the distance against Johnson, the last two being Johnson title defenses.

For around 9 yrs, Sam faced the biggest, best, and strongest that boxing had to offer, fighting about once a month. No way in hell could Ali ever keep up a pace like that. In that period alone Sam won about 30 more fights than did Ali in his entire career.

Sure, Ali has a better "championship" career, but seeing how Sam was frozen out of any title shots, just how much advantage does Ali really have. I calculated Sam had about 60 bouts against HOF fighters alone. Ali only has 61 fights in his entire career and about a dozen HOF bouts.

Don't feel bad. Most any heavy looks weak compared to Sam when you get down to the nitty gritty. Sam doesn't get enough credit because he's such a small guy and doesn't match up well against many heavy champs, but he was the creme de la cream in his day, hands down.