Joe Louis vs Muhammad Ali

[Wild Blue Yonda]

Ali barely sc****d by Norton in their return fight. It was a highly debatable decision (I had it for Ali by a point). Ali, supposedly in better shape than he was for FOTC (if we're to believe Rocks) looked softer, fought softer. He tired down the stretch of a 12-rounder (with a less intense foe) & Norton was the one coming on for most of the later rounds.

I think Ali's best form post-ban, clearly was FOTC.

[PEBBLES!]

You are the type of dumbass who likes to use what he believes are big words while he talks in circles and repeats the same thing over and over.

Quite ironic since all you've done is recycle this statement, "Ali in Frazier I was as good as any post ban Ali", over and over again, without providing logical points to reinforce and substantiate that claim. You can continue to claim I'm repeating myself because you are simply being made to look a fool. I gave several points, which you failed to address, in my second post of this thread.

Going on as you have does not make you appear smarter, nor does it make your points anymore valid.

I'm not out to prove intellectual superiority, which should be apparent anyway by a simple skim-through our respective posts. My points may not be definitive but they are certainly more objective than you spouting the same hackneyed statement again, in one form or another. In fact, you haven't even given a single solid point to establish your point of view.

Debating with you is just something I do not have the time for. I will say that I disagree with you and I do stand by what I have stated above, but I'm not going to debate miniscule details, that nobody has anyway of knowing as fact, as you seem to believe you do, with anybody.

Sure, you will stand by what you stated (without providing any points as to why it could be true), and I will stand by my claim that Norton II was the best post-ban version of Ali, while having made several points as to why I believe it to be true.

And you are too simple to realize that Frazier is the far superior fighter in comparison to Norton, and he sets a pace unlike any Norton ever has, and his style is a lot more deadly,

Have you ever seen an Ali vs Norton fight? Do you realise that Norton is the worst stylistic match-up for Ali you could possibly think of?

The coxcorner article even utilises Norton's strategy as one of it's main reasons for Louis having a chance to defeat Ali.

I just went through this in my previous post, You are either too thick-headed to register the point or you literally haven't seen either of their fights.

so to use Ali's performance against Norton in their second fight will never be a good gauge as to how Ali would ever do against Frazier.

Sure, buddy.

I know you're not going to get it, because you are past the point of using logic in your reasoning, and are now speaking strictly out of pride and not wanting to be wrong.

Just get it.

I feel sorry for you - you talk about logic and reasoning as if you have actually displayed either in this discussion.

I'll be happy to debate another poster, but not someone with limited knowledge like you.

[CarlosG815]

Ali barely sc****d by Norton in their return fight. It was a highly debatable decision (I had it for Ali by a point). Ali, supposedly in better shape than he was for FOTC (if we're to believe Rocks) looked softer, fought softer. He tired down the stretch of a 12-rounder (with a less intense foe) & Norton was the one coming on for most of the later rounds.

I think Ali's best form post-ban, clearly was FOTC.

I believe Norton beat Ali but that is besides the point. I agree with what you're saying, and I also believe that maybe the FOTC took something out of Ali physically. It was definitely the best performance of his post ban career, masterful in every sense of the word. He just came up short against the better fighter that night.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Ali's performance that night, but he simply was not as good as Frazier the night of the FOTC.

[CarlosG815]

Quite ironic since all you've done is recycle this statement, "Ali in Frazier I was as good as any post ban Ali", over and over again, without providing logical points to reinforce and substantiate that claim. You can continue to claim I'm repeating myself because you are simply being made to look a fool. I gave several points, which you failed to address, in my second post of this thread.



I'm not out to prove intellectual superiority, which should be apparent anyway by a simple skim-through our respective posts. My points may not be definitive but they are certainly more objective than you spouting the same hackneyed statement again, in one form or another. In fact, you haven't even given a single solid point to establish your point of view.





Sure, you will stand by what you stated (without providing any points as to why it could be true), and I will stand by my claim that Norton II was the best post-ban version of Ali, while having made several points as to why I believe it to be true.









Have you ever seen an Ali vs Norton fight? Do you realise that Norton is the worst stylistic match-up for Ali you could possibly think of?

The coxcorner article even utilises Norton's strategy as one of it's main reasons for Louis having a chance to defeat Ali.

I just went through this in my previous post, You are either too thick-headed to register the point or you literally haven't seen either of their fights.




Sure, buddy.





I feel sorry for you - you talk about logic and reasoning as if you have actually displayed either in this discussion.

I'll be happy to debate another poster, but not someone with limited knowledge like you.

Wow, you sure told me, oh witty one.

[Steak]

theyre actually both stylistic nightmares for each other.

on one hand you have Louis, the Norton esque stalker with very powerful compact punches which would have troubled Ali.

on the other you have Ali, whos quickness, boxing ability and right hand over the jab would frustrate the hell out of Louis.

Ill have to go with Ali overall...less intagibles. he was more durable and faster, so even if the going got tough he would still be able to win with some of his physical advantages.

[Wild Blue Yonda]

theyre actually both stylistic nightmares for each other.

on one hand you have Louis, the Norton esque stalker with very powerful compact punches which would have troubled Ali.

on the other you have Ali, whos quickness, boxing ability and right hand over the jab would frustrate the hell out of Louis.

Ill have to go with Ali overall...less intagibles. he was more durable and faster, so even if the going got tough he would still be able to win with some of his physical advantages.

Can you expound on the comparison between Norton & Louis you have in mind?

[StarshipTrooper]

Can you expound on the comparison between Norton & Louis you have in mind?

There isn't one: The two fight nothing alike. Norton's unorthodox crab-like style of fighting couldn't be any more different than Louis' textbook method.

Poet

[res]

How Joe Louis Would Have Beaten Muhammad Ali
http://coxscorner.tripod.com/alilouis.html

Maybe i should have finished the article to really take in the case he was making but the portion i read was absurd.

fighters in Ali's era didn't feint so Ali wouldn't know how to handle Joe Louis's feints? HAHAHA.


Floyd Patterson's whole style was feinting and misleading movement, and he was a whole lot faster than Louis. He could barely lay a glove on Ali.

[Steak]

Can you expound on the comparison between Norton & Louis you have in mind?

its a slight movement, but Louis liked to extend his right hand outward to block the jab, which helped him to close the distance, and would rather jab at the same time while blocking the jab instead of pulling backwards or waiting to counterpunch. Norton did something very similiar, and its Eddie Futch said that was a key point in beating Ali.

As soon as Norton started training to fight Ali in the San Diego arena, I thought about what had happened in their one round workout in the Hoover Street Gym. I told him, “You’re not going to hit Ali by slipping or pulling back or dropping underneath or parrying. You have to hit him when he’s punching. When he starts to jab, you punch with him. Keep your right hand high. His jab will pop into the middle of your glove and then your jab will come right down the pipe into the middle of his face. Every time he starts to punch, don’t pull back go forward toward him.” That’s what Norton did. That’s what destroyed Ali’s rhythm.

Louis and Norton certainly werent mirror images, but I think Louis would have ended up using a similiar tactic in such a hypothetical matchup.
still dont think it would net him the win, however.

[res]

its a slight movement, but Louis liked to extend his right hand outward to block the jab, which helped him to close the distance, and would rather jab at the same time while blocking the jab instead of pulling backwards or waiting to counterpunch. Norton did something very similiar, and its Eddie Futch said that was a key point in beating Ali.


Louis and Norton certainly werent mirror images, but I think Louis would have ended up using a similiar tactic in such a hypothetical matchup.
still dont think it would net him the win, however.

It may have been a helpful addition, but it was not what was decisive. It was Norton's basic crab style which neutralizes work off the jab that made him a problem for Ali. Also imagining Louis trying to see through Ali's feints in order to time him for something like this is sort of funny. Everytime he misreads he is set up for a counter, and Louis is not greased lightning. It won't take any time before Ali realizes what Louis is trying to do.